{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3938", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3938, "subject": "Jungle Garden", "messages": 14, "voices": 9, "first": "2003-04-15T16:35:48+00:00", "last": "2003-04-22T00:26:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-04-15T16:35:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Forgive me if this has already been done, but ...\n\nI recall a while back there was an argument that the Jungle Garden\nscene was connected somehow to the South America of roughly-our-time.\nIn fact, it must be Africa, because Isangoma -- or iSangoma or\nisaNngoma -- is a Zulu title for a diviner. Among the references\navailable on the Web ...\n\nhttp://www.smom-za.org/bbg/tradheal.htm\nhttp://www.tribalonline.com/culture_diviner.asp\nhttp://agriculture.kzntl.gov.za/scientific_publications/medicinal_plants/index.asp\n\nThis would seem to explain why he can see what Robert and Marie\ncannot (\"Death and the Maiden\" ... who is not, of course, a maiden,\nbut then, Severian is not exactly Death).\n\nOkay, so ... we've got a pair of French missionaries working with a\nZulu diviner, which puts us in South Africa. Given the mail plane,\nthis seems to place Robert, Marie and Isangoma, with a fairly high\nprobability, in the second quarter of the 20th century, yes? No? But\nby that time the Dutch and English had permeated South Africa so\nthoroughly that it's hard to understand how Isangoma can _not_ be\nmore aware of their beliefs than he seems to be. (The conquered tend\nto learn a lot more about the conquerors than the latter do about\nthe former.) So I'm thinking that they don't come from the \"real\"\nSouth Africa at all, but from the South Africa of jungle movies.\nNobody seems quite to have located any movie that could be a\n\"source\" for them, but that doesn't seem to me a problem -- after\nall, when the Frankenstein story replays itself in the time of the\nNew Sun, it does so without the names, and in a way that resembles,\ngenerically, the movies rather than the book. So it seems that, in\nthe mythic period of the New Sun, which Wolfe refers to as\n\"posthistory\" (possibly implying a relationship to postmodernism\nand the discourse referred to as \"the end of history\"), the stories\nplay themselves out in generic form, welling perhaps from the\npopular un/consciousness and media rather than respecting the\nintellectual \"purity\" of their sources (again a fairly postmodernist\napproach).\n\nI don't know where to go from there with this, but thought it was\nkind of interesting." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Che Monro", "address": "flirt at technologist.com" }, "date": "2003-04-16T00:11:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nobody seems quite to have located any movie that could be a\n\"source\" for them, but that doesn't seem to me a problem -- after\nall, when the Frankenstein story replays itself in the time of the\nNew Sun, it does so without the names, and in a way that resembles,\ngenerically, the movies rather than the book. So it seems that, in\nthe mythic period of the New Sun, which Wolfe refers to as\n\"posthistory\" (possibly implying a relationship to postmodernism\nand the discourse referred to as \"the end of history\"), the stories\nplay themselves out in generic form, welling perhaps from the\npopular un/consciousness and media rather than respecting the\nintellectual \"purity\" of their sources (again a fairly postmodernist\napproach)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems very Wolfean in style. *nodnods*\n\nOn a completely tangential matter: Severian's reaction to the aeroplane \nseems to indicate or at least imply that winged fliers are unknown in his \nera. If true, then this seems interesting because it implies a couple of \nthings:\n\n1. Maybe \"antigravity\" is so cheap and easy in this era that wings are \nutterly obsolete. If it's very easy to make something float then you don't \nneed wings, but if you only have a powerful engine of some kind, be it \npiston, jet, rocket or \"impulse drive\", then wings are a simple, logical \nand efficient thing to have in an atmosphere. So it seems likely that \nwhatever the secret of anti-gravity might be in Severian's era it is \nsomething simpler than constructing an internal combustion engine. I'm \nreminded of the shells Dr Taltos provided to the lake people for some reason.\n\n2. Possibly they have powerful engines of some kinds, but the idea of \npowered flight has been erased by thousands of years of lighter than air \n(anti gravity) flight. Thus for someone re-inventing flight in this era a \nbaloon would be the natural model, as seen with the flying tent of the \nPelarines, which was quoted by someone recently. They might have a piston \non jet engine, but they wouldn't see the -connection- between that and \nflight, since it doesn't float. Random Observation: Wolfe likes \nbaloons/zeppelins, doesn't he? Note the airship in TBOTLS.\n\nChe\n\nChé Franz Joseph Monro -- http://www.chemonro.com\nche at chemonro.com -- flirt at technologist.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2003-04-16T01:05:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Che Monro wrote:\nOn a completely tangential matter: Severian's reaction to the aeroplane\nseems to indicate or at least imply that winged fliers are unknown in his\nera." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They use lifting bodies.\n\nSeverian says this explicitly.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-04-16T03:34:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Che,\n\nThanks for the kind words about my theorizing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On a completely tangential matter: Severian's reaction to the aeroplane \nseems to indicate or at least imply that winged fliers are unknown in his \nera. If true, then this seems interesting because it implies a couple of \nthings:\n\n1. Maybe \"antigravity\" is so cheap and easy in this era that wings are \nutterly obsolete. 2. Possibly they have powerful engines of some kinds, but \nthe idea of powered flight has been erased by thousands of years of lighter \nthan air (anti gravity) flight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or (3) Severian is accustomed to \"lifting body\" style \"fliers.\"\n\nSHADOW, ch. XXI (pp.191-2 in my Timescape h/c):\n Into view came the strangest flier I have ever seen.\n It was winged, as if it had been built by some race\n that had not yet realized that since it would not\n flap its wings like a bird in any case, there was\n no reason its lift, like a kite's, could not come\n from its hull.\n\nGawsh, I love being able to do my email at home, where I have my\nreference materials around me..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-04-16T06:15:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They use lifting bodies: Severian comments on it somewhere, how this\nstrange flier with wings was built by someone who didn't realise he could\nsimply shape the entire craft\n\n\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Che Monro\" \nOn a completely tangential matter: Severian's reaction to the aeroplane\nseems to indicate or at least imply that winged fliers are unknown in his\nera." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Yves Meynard", "address": "ymeynard at globetrotter.net" }, "date": "2003-04-17T00:42:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I recall a while back there was an argument that the Jungle Garden\nscene was connected somehow to the South America of roughly-our-time.\nIn fact, it must be Africa, because Isangoma -- or iSangoma or\nisaNngoma -- is a Zulu title for a diviner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, but what about when Isangoma says:\n\n\"[The Proud One's] breath is the mist that hides the infant uakaris \nfrom the claws of the margay!\"\n\n(p.160 in my Pocket edition of _Shadow_)\n\n From http://ds.dial.pipex.com/agarman/margay.htm :\n\nThe Margay, also known as the Long Tailed Spotted Cat, is similar in \nappearance to the Ocelot - its body however is smaller, growing up two \n25-27 inches and in comparison with the Ocelot, the margay displays \nlonger legs and tail.\n\nThe range of the margay extends from Mexico down through Peru, parts of \nParaguay to the northern areas of Argentina.\n\n From http://www.animalinfo.org/species/primate/cacacalv.htm :\n\nThe red uakari is a medium-sized monkey weighing about 4 kg (9 lb). […] \nThe red uakari is found in flooded swamp forests of Amazonia in Brazil, \nColombia and Peru.\n\n From http://www.animalinfo.org/species/primate/cacamela.htm :\nThe black uakari is found in the northern Amazon basin in Brazil, \nColombia and Venezuela.\n\nThis seems to point rather strongly to a South-American context.\n\nStill, as Dan'l writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I'm thinking that they don't come from the \"real\"\nSouth Africa at all, but from the South Africa of jungle movies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or more generally speaking, from the jungle country of jungle movies, \nthat obscenely fecund, oppressively green realm that seems firmly \nrooted in our 20th-century subconscious, without any need for external \nvalidation -- or consistency.\n\nYves Meynard" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2003-04-17T00:49:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Yves Meynard wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I recall a while back there was an argument that the Jungle Garden\nscene was connected somehow to the South America of roughly-our-time.\nIn fact, it must be Africa, because Isangoma -- or iSangoma or\nisaNngoma -- is a Zulu title for a diviner." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Must\" is a strong word." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK, but what about when Isangoma says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"[The Proud One's] breath is the mist that hides the infant uakaris\nfrom the claws of the margay!\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(p.160 in my Pocket edition of _Shadow_)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From http://ds.dial.pipex.com/agarman/margay.htm :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Margay, also known as the Long Tailed Spotted Cat, is similar in\nappearance to the Ocelot [...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The range of the margay extends from Mexico down through Peru, parts of\nParaguay to the northern areas of Argentina." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From http://www.animalinfo.org/species/primate/cacacalv.htm :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The red uakari is a medium-sized monkey weighing about 4 kg (9 lb). [=85]\nThe red uakari is found in flooded swamp forests of Amazonia in Brazil,\nColombia and Peru." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[....]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is obviously South America.\n\nIt is true, Isangoma means what y'all are saying in Zulu.\n\nMaybe it means something else in some south American Indian\nlanguage.\n\nHell, maybe it means the same thing in some south American\nIndian language.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n=2E" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-04-17T01:03:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Josh rather petulantly argues:\nIt is obviously South America. It is true, Isangoma means what y'all are\nsaying in Zulu. Maybe it means something else in some south American Indian\nlanguage. Hell, maybe it means the same thing in some south American\nIndian language.\n\nCrush responds:\nThat's a bit of a reach. If you want to go there then *maybe* \"margay\" and\n\"uakari\" mean something else in Zulu.\n\n-- Crush\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2003-04-17T01:36:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, James Wynn wrote:\nJosh Geller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is obviously South America. It is true, Isangoma means what\ny'all are saying in Zulu. Maybe it means something else in some\nsouth American Indian language. Hell, maybe it means the same\nthing in some south American Indian language." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a bit of a reach. If you want to go there then *maybe* \"margay\" and\n\"uakari\" mean something else in Zulu." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps.\n\nWhat is the terrain like, in kwaZulu-Natal? Does it resemble the tropical\njungle of the scene in 'The Jungle Garden'?\n\nDo Zulus use arrow poison? For that matter, do they use bows and arrows to\nany great extent?\n\nIn the early twentieth century, what religion might the average Zulu be\nexpected to profess?\n\nWhat was the extent of European civilization in kwaZulu-Natal in the early\n20th century?\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-04-17T07:41:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 17/04/2003 01:49:21 Josh Geller wrote:\nOn Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Yves Meynard wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I recall a while back there was an argument that the Jungle Garden\nscene was connected somehow to the South America of roughly-our-time.\nIn fact, it must be Africa, because Isangoma -- or iSangoma or\nisaNngoma -- is a Zulu title for a diviner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Must\" is a strong word." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK, but what about when Isangoma says:\n\"[The Proud One's] breath is the mist that hides the infant uakaris\nfrom the claws of the margay!\"\n(p.160 in my Pocket edition of _Shadow_)\n From http://ds.dial.pipex.com/agarman/margay.htm :\nThe Margay, also known as the Long Tailed Spotted Cat, is similar in\nappearance to the Ocelot [...]\nThe range of the margay extends from Mexico down through Peru, parts of\nParaguay to the northern areas of Argentina.\n From http://www.animalinfo.org/species/primate/cacacalv.htm :\nThe red uakari is a medium-sized monkey weighing about 4 kg (9 lb). [?]\nThe red uakari is found in flooded swamp forests of Amazonia in Brazil,\nColombia and Peru." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is obviously South America.\n\nIt is true, Isangoma means what y'all are saying in Zulu.\n\nMaybe it means something else in some south American Indian\nlanguage.\n\nHell, maybe it means the same thing in some south American\nIndian language." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is the purpose of the gardens and what are they, in physical terms?\n\nWe are told that they were created by Father Inire which might lead us to\nthink of some magical/technoligical solution; perhaps they might be\nexcursions into a real but distant past.\n\nYet the replanting and refurbishment of the sand garden strongly suggests\notherwise. Actually constructing something would appear to preclude the\npossibility that the physical reality of the gardens lies beyond the time\nor dimention of Severian's contemporary Nessus.\n\nIf Father Inire's plans have a purpose, or several purposes for the\ngardens then it seems reasonable to use materials at hand to achieve it.\nAn \"Africa\" populated with South American animals is logical enough if the\naim is to create a scene that is an image of Africa on the surface for\nsome deeper reason. Immediate plausibility would be far more significant\nthat historical accuracy.\n\nMore many seem to place the Commonwealth on that continet we know as South\nAmerica. The fauna might well be more available than anything African in\norigin.\n\nAll this is separate to the effect the gardens have on those who wander\nthem. Tardis like they seem of far larger size than could be accomodated\nby the dome that houses them. The affinity that some people have for some\ngardens is mentioned and we see Severian spending far longer than he\nthought in them. My guess on reading was that there was something\ndesigned to attract people so strongly that they would populate the\ngardens where appropriate even to playing the roles such as we see in the\njungle garden. Somewhat metaphysical perhaps but not I think implausible.\n\nThis still leaves unanswered - and I freely admit I have no clear ideas\nhere - the question about their purpose, the purpose intended by the\nbuilder within the narative and the purpose of the author outside it.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-04-17T16:40:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yves Menard, not at all the author of the Quixote, points out thatthe \nanimals\nIsangoma mentions are South African in origin and observes that:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This seems to point rather strongly to a South-American context." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which is much better stated than my foolhardy and premature use of\n\"must.\" (Thanks, Josh. A very strong word indeed.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So I'm thinking that they don't come from the \"real\"\nSouth Africa at all, but from the South Africa of jungle movies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or more generally speaking, from the jungle country of jungle movies, that \nobscenely fecund, oppressively green realm that seems firmly rooted in our \n20th-century subconscious, without any need for external validation -- or \nconsistency." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bingo. Good catch.\n\nAnd what do we know about the gardens and the people in them? That\nsome people whose psyches are attuned to their peculiar ambiance\nwander in and are caught, and become part of the exhibit. (I'm not\neven quoting from memory, I'm paraphrasing from memory, so I can't\ncite page or anything.) It's entirely possible, and I suspect even\nlikely, that Isangoma, Robert, and Marie are actually citizens\nof the Commonwealth who wandered in and were caught in this way.\n\nActually, I've suddenly entirely re-visioned the Botanic Gardens\nin my mind ... In other words, Father Inire has built (for whose\namusement?) a theme park, a sort of posthistorical Walt Disney\nWorld with living audioanimatrons.\n\n(The horror! The horror!)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2003-04-17T23:06:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk wrote:\nThis still leaves unanswered - and I freely admit I have no clear ideas\nhere - the question about their purpose, the purpose intended by the\nbuilder within the narative and the purpose of the author outside it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could it be a dual to the Library? Another place where people go and\nsome never come back. Both places have hazy boundaries. Both places\nhave old men who look for things. Severian goes to both places on an\nerrand: one for books, another for an avern. Both recipients end up dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tom" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-04-21T14:41:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tom wrote:\nCould [the Garden] be a dual to the Library? Another place where people \ngo and some never come back. Both places have hazy boundaries. Both places\nhave old men who look for things. Severian goes to both places on an\nerrand: one for books, another for an avern. Both recipients end up dead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I suspect so. Compare the Bible with the Garden of Eden as \"deep \nsources\" for the pair. The Library undergirds (literally) the Commonweath \ncivilization. The Garden is also underground. Both are broad images of \nfoundations and origins, relating to the past. The fact that the Garden \ncontains missionaries and also is a place of death is Edenic, broadly \nspeaking.\n IIRC, the avern is a \"delight to the eyes\" but brings death. Only \nthe Conciliator can wield it with full profit. Mere Adams are advised to \nstay away from it. And of course, it comes from the heavens.\n Those who are trapped in the Garden are those who fantasize about \nthe past, and don't want to live in the real world (?). A return to Eden is \na trap; \"salvation\" lies only in the future, after judgment.\n Probably a look at Talos's \"Eschatology and Genesis\" would provide \nmore indications.\n Just some thoughts.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Che Monro", "address": "flirt at technologist.com" }, "date": "2003-04-22T00:26:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Jungle Garden", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria Wrote:\n IIRC, the avern is a \"delight to the eyes\" but brings death. Only \nthe Conciliator can wield it with full profit. Mere Adams are advised to \nstay away from it. And of course, it comes from the heavens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oooh. Another point I missed, thank you. Hmmm.\n\nWhat is the profit when the Conciliator weilds the Avern? Perhaps he cured \nhimself of death? And the flower bent and opened to reveal a face...\n\nBut what did it do? What was the significance of it?\n\nPlease.\n\nChe\n\nChé Franz Joseph Monro -- http://www.chemonro.com\nche at chemonro.com -- flirt at technologist.com" } ] } ] }