Subject: (urth) Jungle Garden

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <katbarx at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:35:48 +0000

Forgive me if this has already been done, but ...

I recall a while back there was an argument that the Jungle Garden
scene was connected somehow to the South America of roughly-our-time.
In fact, it must be Africa, because Isangoma -- or iSangoma or
isaNngoma -- is a Zulu title for a diviner. Among the references
available on the Web ...

http://www.smom-za.org/bbg/tradheal.htm
http://www.tribalonline.com/culture_diviner.asp
http://agriculture.kzntl.gov.za/scientific_publications/medicinal_plants/index.asp

This would seem to explain why he can see what Robert and Marie
cannot ("Death and the Maiden" ... who is not, of course, a maiden,
but then, Severian is not exactly Death).

Okay, so ... we've got a pair of French missionaries working with a
Zulu diviner, which puts us in South Africa. Given the mail plane,
this seems to place Robert, Marie and Isangoma, with a fairly high
probability, in the second quarter of the 20th century, yes? No? But
by that time the Dutch and English had permeated South Africa so
thoroughly that it's hard to understand how Isangoma can _not_ be
more aware of their beliefs than he seems to be. (The conquered tend
to learn a lot more about the conquerors than the latter do about
the former.) So I'm thinking that they don't come from the "real"
South Africa at all, but from the South Africa of jungle movies.
Nobody seems quite to have located any movie that could be a
"source" for them, but that doesn't seem to me a problem -- after
all, when the Frankenstein story replays itself in the time of the
New Sun, it does so without the names, and in a way that resembles,
generically, the movies rather than the book. So it seems that, in
the mythic period of the New Sun, which Wolfe refers to as
"posthistory" (possibly implying a relationship to postmodernism
and the discourse referred to as "the end of history"), the stories
play themselves out in generic form, welling perhaps from the
popular un/consciousness and media rather than respecting the
intellectual "purity" of their sources (again a fairly postmodernist
approach).

I don't know where to go from there with this, but thought it was
kind of interesting.

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

--

---

From: Che Monro <flirt at technologist.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 00:11:32 +0000

>intellectual "purity" of their sources (again a fairly postmodernist

This seems very Wolfean in style. *nodnods*

On a completely tangential matter: Severian's reaction to the aeroplane 
seems to indicate or at least imply that winged fliers are unknown in his 
era. If true, then this seems interesting because it implies a couple of 
things:

1. Maybe "antigravity" is so cheap and easy in this era that wings are 
utterly obsolete. If it's very easy to make something float then you don't 
need wings, but if you only have a powerful engine of some kind, be it 
piston, jet, rocket or "impulse drive", then wings are a simple, logical 
and efficient thing to have in an atmosphere. So it seems likely that 
whatever the secret of anti-gravity might be in Severian's era it is 
something simpler than constructing an internal combustion engine. I'm 
reminded of the shells Dr Taltos provided to the lake people for some reason.

2. Possibly they have powerful engines of some kinds, but the idea of 
powered flight has been erased by thousands of years of lighter than air 
(anti gravity) flight. Thus for someone re-inventing flight in this era a 
baloon would be the natural model, as seen with the flying tent of the 
Pelarines, which was quoted by someone recently. They might have a piston 
on jet engine, but they wouldn't see the -connection- between that and 
flight, since it doesn't float. Random Observation: Wolfe likes 
baloons/zeppelins, doesn't he? Note the airship in TBOTLS.

Che

Ché Franz Joseph Monro -- http://www.chemonro.com
che at chemonro.com    --     flirt at technologist.com

--

---

From: Josh Geller <dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 01:05:12 +0000

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Che Monro wrote:

> era.

They use lifting bodies.

Severian says this explicitly.

.

--

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <katbarx at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 03:34:59 +0000

Che,

Thanks for the kind words about my theorizing.

>utterly obsolete. 2. Possibly they have powerful engines of some kinds, but 
>the idea of powered flight has been erased by thousands of years of lighter 
>than air (anti gravity) flight.

Or (3) Severian is accustomed to "lifting body" style "fliers."

SHADOW, ch. XXI (pp.191-2 in my Timescape h/c):
     Into view came the strangest flier I have ever seen.
     It was winged, as if it had been built by some race
     that had not yet realized that since it would not
     flap its wings like a bird in any case, there was
     no reason its lift, like a kite's, could not come
     from its hull.

Gawsh, I love being able to do my email at home, where I have my
reference materials around me...

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

--

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 06:15:52 +0000

They use lifting bodies:  Severian comments on it somewhere, how this
strange flier with wings was built by someone who didn't realise he could
simply shape the entire craft

----- Original Message -----
From: "Che Monro" <flirt at technologist.com>
On a completely tangential matter: Severian's reaction to the aeroplane
seems to indicate or at least imply that winged fliers are unknown in his
era.

--

---

From: Yves Meynard <ymeynard at globetrotter.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:42:11 +0000

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes writes:

> isaNngoma -- is a Zulu title for a diviner.

OK, but what about when Isangoma says:

"[The Proud One's] breath is the mist that hides the infant uakaris 
from the claws of the margay!"

(p.160 in my Pocket edition of _Shadow_)

 From  http://ds.dial.pipex.com/agarman/margay.htm :

The Margay, also known as the Long Tailed Spotted Cat, is similar in 
appearance to the Ocelot - its body however is smaller, growing up two 
25-27 inches and in comparison with the Ocelot, the margay displays 
longer legs and tail.

The range of the margay extends from Mexico down through Peru, parts of 
Paraguay to the northern areas of Argentina.

 From http://www.animalinfo.org/species/primate/cacacalv.htm :

The red uakari is a medium-sized monkey weighing about 4 kg (9 lb). […] 
The red uakari is found in flooded swamp forests of Amazonia in Brazil, 
Colombia and Peru.

 From http://www.animalinfo.org/species/primate/cacamela.htm :
The black uakari is found in the northern Amazon basin in Brazil, 
Colombia and Venezuela.

This seems to point rather strongly to a South-American context.

Still, as Dan'l writes:

> So I'm thinking that they don't come from the "real"

Or more generally speaking, from the jungle country of jungle movies, 
that obscenely fecund, oppressively green realm that seems firmly 
rooted in our 20th-century subconscious, without any need for external 
validation -- or consistency.

Yves Meynard

--

---

From: Josh Geller <dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 00:49:21 +0000

>> isaNngoma -- is a Zulu title for a diviner.

"Must" is a strong word.

> appearance to the Ocelot [...]

> The red uakari is a medium-sized monkey weighing about 4 kg (9 lb). [=85]

> [....]

It is obviously South America.

It is true, Isangoma means what y'all are saying in Zulu.

Maybe it means something else in some south American Indian
language.

Hell, maybe it means the same thing in some south American
Indian language.

=2E

--

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:03:52 +0000

Josh rather petulantly argues:
It is obviously South America. It is true, Isangoma means what y'all are
saying in Zulu. Maybe it means something else in some south American Indian
language. Hell, maybe it means the same thing in some south American
Indian language.

Crush responds:
That's a bit of a reach. If you want to go there then *maybe* "margay" and
"uakari" mean something else in Zulu.

-- Crush

.

--

--

---

From: Josh Geller <dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 01:36:54 +0000

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, James Wynn wrote:

> Josh Geller wrote:

>> It is obviously South America. It is true, Isangoma means what
>> y'all are saying in Zulu. Maybe it means something else in some
>> south American Indian language. Hell, maybe it means the same
>> thing in some south American Indian language.

> "uakari" mean something else in Zulu.

Perhaps.

What is the terrain like, in kwaZulu-Natal? Does it resemble the tropical
jungle of the scene in 'The Jungle Garden'?

Do Zulus use arrow poison? For that matter, do they use bows and arrows to
any great extent?

In the early twentieth century, what religion might the average Zulu be
expected to profess?

What was the extent of European civilization in kwaZulu-Natal in the early
20th century?

.

--

---

From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 07:41:27 +0000

On 17/04/2003 01:49:21 Josh Geller wrote:
>> The red uakari is a medium-sized monkey weighing about 4 kg (9 lb). [?]

What is the purpose of the gardens and what are they, in physical terms?

We are told that they were created by Father Inire which might lead us to
think of some magical/technoligical solution; perhaps they might be
excursions into a real but distant past.

Yet the replanting and refurbishment of the sand garden strongly suggests
otherwise.  Actually constructing something would appear to preclude the
possibility that the physical reality of the gardens lies beyond the time
or dimention of Severian's contemporary Nessus.

If Father Inire's plans have a purpose, or several purposes for the
gardens then it seems reasonable to use materials at hand to achieve it.
An "Africa" populated with South American animals is logical enough if the
aim is to create a scene that is an image of Africa on the surface for
some deeper reason.  Immediate plausibility would be far more significant
that historical accuracy.

More many seem to place the Commonwealth on that continet we know as South
America. The fauna might well be more available than anything African in
origin.

All this is separate to the effect the gardens have on those who wander
them.  Tardis like they seem of far larger size than could be accomodated
by the dome that houses them.  The affinity that some people have for some
gardens is mentioned and we see Severian spending far longer than he
thought in them.  My guess on reading was that there was something
designed to attract people so strongly that they would populate the
gardens where appropriate even to playing the roles such as we see in the
jungle garden.  Somewhat metaphysical perhaps but not I think implausible.

This still leaves unanswered - and I freely admit I have no clear ideas
here - the question about their purpose, the purpose intended by the
builder within the narative and the purpose of the author outside it.

Matthew

--

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <katbarx at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:40:48 +0000

Yves Menard, not at all the author of the Quixote, points out thatthe 
animals

>This seems to point rather strongly to a South-American context.

Which is much better stated than my foolhardy and premature use of
"must." (Thanks, Josh. A very strong word indeed.)

>Or more generally speaking, from the jungle country of jungle movies, that 
>obscenely fecund, oppressively green realm that seems firmly rooted in our 
>20th-century subconscious, without any need for external validation -- or 
>consistency.

Bingo. Good catch.

And what do we know about the gardens and the people in them? That
some people whose psyches are attuned to their peculiar ambiance
wander in and are caught, and become part of the exhibit. (I'm not
even quoting from memory, I'm paraphrasing from memory, so I can't
cite page or anything.) It's entirely possible, and I suspect even
likely, that Isangoma, Robert, and Marie are actually citizens
of the Commonwealth who wandered in and were caught in this way.

Actually, I've suddenly entirely re-visioned the Botanic Gardens
in my mind ... In other words, Father Inire has built (for whose
amusement?) a theme park, a sort of posthistorical Walt Disney
World with living audioanimatrons.

(The horror! The horror!)

_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

--

---

From: Thomas Bitterman <tom at bitterman.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:06:04 +0000

>builder within the narative and the purpose of the author outside it.

Could it be a dual to the Library?  Another place where people go and
some never come back.  Both places have hazy boundaries.  Both places
have old men who look for things.  Severian goes to both places on an
errand: one for books, another for an avern.  Both recipients end up dead.

 >Matthew

Tom

--

---

From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:41:12 +0000

Tom wrote:

>Could [the Garden] be a dual to the Library?  Another place where people 
>go and some never come back.  Both places have hazy boundaries.  Both places

         I suspect so. Compare the Bible with the Garden of Eden as "deep 
sources" for the pair. The Library undergirds (literally) the Commonweath 
civilization. The Garden is also underground. Both are broad images of 
foundations and origins, relating to the past. The fact that the Garden 
contains missionaries and also is a place of death is Edenic, broadly 
speaking.
         IIRC, the avern is a "delight to the eyes" but brings death. Only 
the Conciliator can wield it with full profit. Mere Adams are advised to 
stay away from it. And of course, it comes from the heavens.
         Those who are trapped in the Garden are those who fantasize about 
the past, and don't want to live in the real world (?). A return to Eden is 
a trap; "salvation" lies only in the future, after judgment.
         Probably a look at Talos's "Eschatology and Genesis" would provide 
more indications.
         Just some thoughts.

Nutria

--

---

From: Che Monro <flirt at technologist.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:26:36 +0000

> stay away from it. And of course, it comes from the heavens.

Oooh. Another point I missed, thank you. Hmmm.

What is the profit when the Conciliator weilds the Avern? Perhaps he cured 
himself of death? And the flower bent and opened to reveal a face...

But what did it do? What was the significance of it?

Please.

Che

--