{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3948", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3948, "subject": "time warping of botanic gardens/ female flowers", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2003-04-18T06:12:08+00:00", "last": "2003-04-20T02:55:01+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2003-04-18T06:12:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) time warping of botanic gardens/ female flowers", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had always assumed that the thematic implications of the botanical gardens \nwere to demystify Severian's facility in transcending time. Of course the \nreligious sentiments expressed by Isangoma are from South America - they are \nalso from a religious practice that forbid females from participating and \nactively saught to kill any females that saw the rituals. Their evil deity \nfits nicely with Agia.\n\nAs Agia and Severian approach the garden, she talks about the Conciliator \nbeing the master of time, then we get a big story about how the mirrors of \nfather inire can actually fold space, or at least create beings of light where \nreflections meet. One of the properties of reflected light is that in a \nvacuum its movement would be indicative of the negation of time. These \ngardens are supposed to be thematically tied to different time periods. \nNotice what happens to Severian when he finds the one with the bush that will \nsprout the claw of the conciliator - the passage of time is negated for him, \nand he doesn't realize how long he's been there. Here, the claw meets itself \nfor the first time - he is carrying it with him, and it is on the bush. To \nme, it seems clear that the mirrors bend time as well as space, and that in \nWolfe the two are closely related. Remember that short story about the doll? \nI think Severian really casts a spiritual reflection back into the past that \nIsangoma can perceive - it is one of the properties of the conciliator, the \nmaster of time, as Agia just said.\nWolfe also said that a reflected bit of light that left the universe would \ncause an object to be formed in the new universe to reflect it. Light from \nthe past can therefore influence creation.\n\nOn a different tack, we know that the flowers of the text tell us something \nabout the women who wear them. Thecla is associated with death lilies and \ndeath roses because she will die, and shoot up from her own grave in severian \nas those flowers bloom over graves. Agia is associated with the poisonous \nAvern because she is a poisonous woman who seeks out heat and excitement. \nDorcas is a mutable expression of both experience and innocence, so she \nchanges her flowers - she seems young but she is dead, she seems virginal but \nshe has had a son and sleeps with her probable grandson, she seems faithful \nbut she leaves Severian, etc.\n\nGiven that these women are associated with flowers (an association \nstrengthened with the Long Sun books) does the fact that Agia's Avern is from \nouter space tell us anything about Agia?\nRemember that her brother wears a death's head mask, but after he removes it \nthe straps are in place. The cacogens wear two masks - one of normality and \none of ugliness to hide their beautiful faces. Is there any other indication \nthat Agia might be extraterrestrial in nature? Or is that thematic link a \ndead end? Anybody commented on this before? I'm sure it's come up. Is Agia \nan evil Cacogen opposed to Inire?\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joshuafalchion", "address": "joshuafalchion at aol.com" }, "date": "2003-04-20T02:55:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) time warping of botanic gardens/ female flowers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that the suggestion that Agia is a cacogen is likely a thematic dead \nend, as you suppose, but it is an interesting one. The curiousness of the \nmask straps remaining is a good point. Also, consider Hethor, who certainly \nwas a sailor (on Tzadkiel's ship, presumably), and unless Agia was telling \nthe truth (and she was a good liar, who fooled Severian for the most part), \nhe possibly brought her and Agilus back with him from the stars ... \nUnfortunately, I consider these points suspect myself, and I continue to \nthink Agia merely human, though an extraordinary one.\n\nJoshua" } ] } ] }