{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3953", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3953, "subject": "Re Moorcock", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-04-18T17:22:30+00:00", "last": "2003-04-18T20:22:28+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Lloyd", "address": "allan-lloyd at lineone.net" }, "date": "2003-04-18T17:22:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re Moorcock", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid makes many points against which I would find no argument. On the subject of Heinlein, maybe I am using the common view of his work, without having read that much of it.However, many of his massive later works do contain a point-of-view character who seems to be not Heinlein himself, but an embarrassingly obvious version of what he would like to have been if he had been born later and been part of his perception of the \"Permissive Society\" of the Sixties. These father-figures who are still highly potent, and attractive to strings of young girls are indeed a very pleasant fantasy (speaking as a male now approaching his 54th year!) but it is psychologically revealing to repeat this image so many times.\n\nHoping Blattid enjoys \"King of the City\". I have also just read \"Letters from Hollywood\" after searching for it for many years, and I loved it too. Is California really like that?\n\n Allan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-04-18T17:57:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re Moorcock", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Blattid makes many points against which I would find no argument. On the\nsubject of Heinlein, maybe I am using the common view of his work, without\nhaving read that much of it.However, many of his massive later works do\ncontain a point-of-view character who seems to be not Heinlein himself, but\nan embarrassingly obvious version of what he would like to have been if he\nhad been born later and been part of his perception of the \"Permissive\nSociety\" of the Sixties." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean like the religious bigot in JOB, or the female narrators in\nFRIDAY and TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET (and even chunks of \"THE NUMBER OF\nTHE BEAST--\"? I'm just sayin', is all ...\n\nIt's the received view that all Heinlein's protagonists are wish-fulfillment\nprojections of himself, and especially in his later years. If so, he wished\nto be a lot of different things -- which is quite possible, of course. Now,\nmind you, I think his female PoV characters are generally pretty badly\nrealized, and especially Friday. That isn't the point; the point is that\nthey _aren't_ what the received view says \"all Heinlein characters\" are and\nmust be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These father-figures who are still highly potent, and attractive to strings\nof young girls are indeed a very pleasant fantasy (speaking as a male now\napproaching his 54th year!) but it is psychologically revealing to repeat\nthis image so many times." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Much as, I suppose, it's psychologically revealing that Moorcock uses\nrape to redeem his female protagonists at least twice. No offense, man,\nbut what's grease for the goose, you see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hoping Blattid enjoys \"King of the City\". I have also just read \"Letters\nfrom Hollywood\" after searching for it for many years, and I loved it too.\nIs California really like that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Parts of it, yeah. Moorcock seems to have stuck pretty much to the coastal\nareas, between LA and San Fran. His take on San Francisco as a city that\nwill eventually preserve itself entirely in lucite as a monument to itself\nis so dead-smack-on that I was howling with laughter (and then had to read\nit to my SF native wife, who thought it wasn't funny at all). There's a fair\namount going on along Route 101, but California is a mighty big place --\nabout the size of Iraq, in fact. Driving from LA to San Fran is about like\ndriving from London to Manchester, in terms of time." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-04-18T18:51:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re Moorcock", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This reminds me (in a way only loosely connected with what you've said) of \nsomething that I find a little disturbing in Wolfe's novels- the frequency \nof rape committed by his protagonists or major characters. Which is NOT, I \nmust stress, to say that I think it's some kind of wish fulfillment or \nfetish on his part, it's not presented that way at all... it's not \ngratuitous, and when it does appear it tends to be a major thematic element, \netc.\n\nI guess what I'm saying is that the frequency with which the \"Rape and \nForgiveness\" theme comes up makes me a little morbidly uncomfortable.\n\nOf course I have not read any of his short stories yet, and I imagine it's \nnowhere near as prevalent there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Much as, I suppose, it's psychologically revealing that Moorcock uses\nrape to redeem his female protagonists at least twice. No offense, man,\nbut what's grease for the goose, you see." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-04-18T20:22:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re Moorcock", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Moorcock is an intelligent but frightening, writer, who hides his values in\nmost of his works, but spells out his plots.\n\n\nWolfe is an intelligent but frightening writer who does not hide anything of\nhis values: just conceals details of plot.,\n\n\nMoorcock hides his values because if he really **spoke** about what he\nbelieves, he would have to realise that it is pure poison.\n\nThat realisation would cramp his style.\n\n\n\nWolfe displays his values in the desperate hope of healing the world.\n\n\n\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n\nj manx\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Chris\" \nTo: \nSent: Friday, April 18, 2003 7:51 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Re Moorcock\nThis reminds me (in a way only loosely connected with what you've said) of\nsomething that I find a little disturbing in Wolfe's novels- the frequency\nof rape committed by his protagonists or major characters. Which is NOT, I\nmust stress, to say that I think it's some kind of wish fulfillment or\nfetish on his part, it's not presented that way at all... it's not\ngratuitous, and when it does appear it tends to be a major thematic\nelement,\netc.\n\nI guess what I'm saying is that the frequency with which the \"Rape and\nForgiveness\" theme comes up makes me a little morbidly uncomfortable.\n\nOf course I have not read any of his short stories yet, and I imagine it's\nnowhere near as prevalent there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Much as, I suppose, it's psychologically revealing that Moorcock uses\nrape to redeem his female protagonists at least twice. No offense, man,\nbut what's grease for the goose, you see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nTired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.\nhttp://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail\n\n\n--" } ] } ] }