Subject: (urth) Re Moorcock

From: Allan Lloyd <allan-lloyd at lineone.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:22:30 +0000

Blattid makes many points against which I would find no argument. On the subject of Heinlein, maybe I am using the common view of his work, without having read that much of it.However, many of his massive later works do contain a point-of-view character who seems to be not Heinlein himself, but an embarrassingly obvious version of  what he would like to have been if he had been born later and been part of his perception of the "Permissive Society" of the Sixties. These father-figures who are still highly potent, and attractive to strings of young girls are indeed a very pleasant fantasy (speaking as a male now approaching his 54th year!) but it is psychologically revealing to repeat this image so many times.

Hoping Blattid enjoys "King of the City". I have also just read "Letters from Hollywood" after searching for it for many years, and I loved it too. Is California really like that?

  Allan

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <katbarx at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:57:01 +0000

>Blattid makes many points against which I would find no argument. On the
>subject of Heinlein, maybe I am using the common view of his work, without
>having read that much of it.However, many of his massive later works do
>contain a point-of-view character who seems to be not Heinlein himself, but
>an embarrassingly obvious version of  what he would like to have been if he
>had been born later and been part of his perception of the "Permissive
>Society" of the Sixties.

You mean like the religious bigot in JOB, or the female narrators in
FRIDAY and TO SAIL BEYOND THE SUNSET (and even chunks of "THE NUMBER OF
THE BEAST--"? I'm just sayin', is all ...

It's the received view that all Heinlein's protagonists are wish-fulfillment
projections of himself, and especially in his later years. If so, he wished
to be a lot of different things -- which is quite possible, of course. Now,
mind you, I think his female PoV characters are generally pretty badly
realized, and especially Friday. That isn't the point; the point is that
they _aren't_ what the received view says "all Heinlein characters" are and
must be.

>These father-figures who are still highly potent, and attractive to strings
>of young girls are indeed a very pleasant fantasy (speaking as a male now
>approaching his 54th year!) but it is psychologically revealing to repeat
>this image so many times.

Much as, I suppose, it's psychologically revealing that Moorcock uses
rape to redeem his female protagonists at least twice. No offense, man,
but what's grease for the goose, you see.

>Hoping Blattid enjoys "King of the City". I have also just read "Letters
>from Hollywood" after searching for it for many years, and I loved it too.
>Is California really like that?

Parts of it, yeah. Moorcock seems to have stuck pretty much to the coastal
areas, between LA and San Fran. His take on San Francisco as a city that
will eventually preserve itself entirely in lucite as a monument to itself
is so dead-smack-on that I was howling with laughter (and then had to read
it to my SF native wife, who thought it wasn't funny at all). There's a fair
amount going on along Route 101, but California is a mighty big place --
about the size of Iraq, in fact. Driving from LA to San Fran is about like
driving from London to Manchester, in terms of time.

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:51:42 +0000

This reminds me (in a way only loosely connected with what you've said) of 
something that I find a little disturbing in Wolfe's novels- the frequency 
of rape committed by his protagonists or major characters. Which is NOT, I 
must stress, to say that I think it's some kind of wish fulfillment or 
fetish on his part, it's not presented that way at all... it's not 
gratuitous, and when it does appear it tends to be a major thematic element, 
etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that the frequency with which the "Rape and 
Forgiveness" theme comes up makes me a little morbidly uncomfortable.

Of course I have not read any of his short stories yet, and I imagine it's 
nowhere near as prevalent there.

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 20:22:28 +0000

Moorcock is an intelligent but frightening,  writer, who hides his values in
most of his works, but spells out his plots.

Wolfe is an intelligent but frightening writer who does not hide anything of
his values: just conceals details of plot.,

Moorcock hides his values because if he really  **spoke** about what he
believes, he would have to realise that it is pure poison.

That realisation would cramp his style.

Wolfe displays his values in the desperate hope of healing the world.

    hartshorn

j manx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
To: <urth at urth.net>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) Re Moorcock

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