{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3958", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3958, "subject": "RAH sex", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-04-21T02:50:51+00:00", "last": "2003-04-22T00:18:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2003-04-21T02:50:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: RAH sex", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nquoting me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wrong. No one ever, ever, including hack porn writers, EVER, EVER wrote\nworse sex than Heinlein. With possibly the momentary exception of a\nlong-forgotten 9-day wonder of the 60s or 70s called -The Harrad\nExperiment-. And I am something of an expert here. I should probably\nsay,\nfor members of this group, that IMO Sturgeon wrote bad sex too, though\nnot,\nby leagues, in the same abysmal class." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't find sprunging nipples to be an inappropriate idiom, and neither\ndid my ex-wife. The spiggots remark I will give you, but I find Clarke's\ndepiction of sex to be poorer storytelling than Heinlein's overall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have you considered why she's your ex-wife, hmmm? No, seriously, none of\nthe Golden Agers could address sex; you could say that they were trained out\nof it by convention, and by the time things loosened up it was too late for\nthem. Clarke had the further problem of the het stuff being a bit alien,\nhence indeed \"poor storytelling.\" But only RAH was actively offensive in a\nhorrible lame, leering, really repulsive sort of way--for me it's that chalk\nscreaming across a blackboard syndrome to a degree I've never felt with\nanother writer in any genre. Ask your ex if she likes any of RAH's later\nbooks (anything after -Stranger-) and if so why.\n\nPerhaps I should add, being rather outnumbered by gender here, that I do not\nfind Wolfe viscerally offensive sexually. There are rape scenes, yes, but\nthey are not gloated over and they seem to me in context. The worst rape is\nthat of Seawrack, and that is certainly agonized over, and also has a\ncertain supernatural aspect.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Lloyd", "address": "allan-lloyd at lineone.net" }, "date": "2003-04-21T08:09:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: RAH sex", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Alice K. Turner\" \nTo: \nSent: Monday, April 21, 2003 3:50 AM\nSubject: (urth) Re: RAH sex\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nquoting me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wrong. No one ever, ever, including hack porn writers, EVER, EVER\nwrote\nworse sex than Heinlein. With possibly the momentary exception of a\nlong-forgotten 9-day wonder of the 60s or 70s called -The Harrad\nExperiment-. And I am something of an expert here. I should probably\nsay,\nfor members of this group, that IMO Sturgeon wrote bad sex too, though\nnot,\nby leagues, in the same abysmal class." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't find sprunging nipples to be an inappropriate idiom, and neither\ndid my ex-wife. The spiggots remark I will give you, but I find Clarke's\ndepiction of sex to be poorer storytelling than Heinlein's overall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have you considered why she's your ex-wife, hmmm? No, seriously, none of\nthe Golden Agers could address sex; you could say that they were trained\nout\nof it by convention, and by the time things loosened up it was too late\nfor\nthem. Clarke had the further problem of the het stuff being a bit alien,\nhence indeed \"poor storytelling.\" But only RAH was actively offensive in a\nhorrible lame, leering, really repulsive sort of way--for me it's that\nchalk\nscreaming across a blackboard syndrome to a degree I've never felt with\nanother writer in any genre. Ask your ex if she likes any of RAH's later\nbooks (anything after -Stranger-) and if so why.\n-alga" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I couldn't agree more about the creepy attitude of RAH, but for sheer badly\njudged and inappropriate writing, the worst must be the childbirth scene in\none of the post Stranger in a Strange Land books, where the girl who is\nabout to die in agony looks up to her partner and says \"Sorry about the\nsound effects, daddy\".\n\nI find it hard to take any writer who is so unaware of human feelings or\nemotions seriously. Didn't Harry Harrison remark to Brian Aldiss after\nreading \"Starship Troopers\" that RAH had obviously never seen any real\nfighting in the war. By his general treatment of pain and suffering, mostly\ndealt with with a macho shrug and \"there goes my leg but, what the hell,\nI've got another one\" attitude, I get the impression of a man who has never\nseen real pain, or been touched by real suffering.\n\nWith Wolfe, the one rape that always affects me deeply is of the child in\nthe Latro books. This happens between chapters and off-page, but it is a\nmark of Wolfe's skill that he can still make it significant and moving. I'm\nnot altogether happy about the number of rapes in Wolfe's work, but that is\npart of an article on women in Wolfe's work which I keep planning to write\nsomeday.\n\nAllan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-04-21T19:09:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: RAH sex", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... But only RAH was actively offensive in a horrible lame, leering,\nreally repulsive sort of way--for me it's that chalk screaming across\na blackboard syndrome to a degree I've never felt with another writer\nin any genre ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "H'mmm. While I agree that RAH's writing about sex (both in the\nconcrete and the abstract) is very little short of abysmal, it's\nnever affected me that way: possibly because I _am_ a het male who\ngrew up with RAH's writing. Two books, and two alone, really offended\nme on first reading: FARNHAM'S FREEHOLD, for reasons too numerous\nto mention -- though I have since concluded that RAH never intended\nwhat he seems to intend with that book, it still is what it is --\nand \"THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST--\", for reasons primarily of sexual\npolitics (\"Husband! What a heart-filling word.\" Icky. Double icky.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps I should add, being rather outnumbered by gender here, that I do \nnot find Wolfe viscerally offensive sexually. There are rape scenes, yes, \nbut they are not gloated over and they seem to me in context. The worst \nrape is that of Seawrack, and that is certainly agonized over, and also has \na certain supernatural aspect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neither of which seems to me to help: it is indeed far and away the\nmost brutal of Wolfe's rape scenes, and made worse by the fact that\nthe victim chooses to blame herself ... which is part and parcel of\nthat \"supernatural aspect,\" come to think of it. That whole scene\nbothers me, perhaps, more than anything else in Wolfe, which is saying\nquite a lot; I think there has to be some kind of meaning to this\nscene which I have never grasped, and I'm not sure I _want_ to." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2003-04-22T00:18:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: RAH sex", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From:\n\"Alice K. Turner\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't find sprunging nipples to be an inappropriate idiom, and neither\ndid my ex-wife. The spiggots remark I will give you, but I find Clarke's\ndepiction of sex to be poorer storytelling than Heinlein's overall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have you considered why she's your ex-wife, hmmm? No, seriously, none of\nthe Golden Agers could address sex; you could say that they were trained out\nof it by convention, and by the time things loosened up it was too late for\nthem. Clarke had the further problem of the het stuff being a bit alien,\nhence indeed \"poor storytelling.\" But only RAH was actively offensive in a\nhorrible lame, leering, really repulsive sort of way--for me it's that chalk\nscreaming across a blackboard syndrome to a degree I've never felt with\nanother writer in any genre. Ask your ex if she likes any of RAH's later\nbooks (anything after -Stranger-) and if so why." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She's not a Heinlein reader, she's damn near a Heinlein character! She \ndescribed her own sexual responses similarly, with her \"boing\" being a \nclose cousin to Deety's onomotopoeia, in addition to red hair and a \ncertain response to corporeal punishment.\n\nA Golden Ager who did less than cringeworthy sex references would be \nSimak; a prostitute is one of the supporting characters in THEY'D RATHER \nBE RIGHT, and the topic comes up more than once." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - http://www.io.com/~jwilson\n\n\n-- " } ] } ] }