{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3959", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3959, "subject": "Rape in Wolfe", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-04-21T14:31:46+00:00", "last": "2003-04-21T18:43:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-04-21T14:31:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rape in Wolfe", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rant mode turned on:\n\nHey, look, get a grip.\n Wolfe is dealing with human depravity, almost all the time.\n He has some really bad women.\n He has some really bad men.\n Guess what really bad men, and even men who are not so bad, have \nbeen doing to helpless women for thousands of years? Right. You got it.\n Wolfe knows history. Rape is relatively rare in modern warfare, IF \nthe army is American or British or Israeli or Western European. It's par \nfor the course in all the rest of human history. Like in former Jugoslavia \nduring the 1990s.\n A friend of mine visited Pakistan a few years ago. He said you see \nvirtually no women in public. Why? because any unaccompanied woman is \"fair \ngame\" for rape.\n Wolfe's rapes are offensive. They're supposed to be. You're \nsupposed to feel like vomiting.\n But they are NOT gratuitous.\n\nNow, rant mode turned off.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-04-21T16:46:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Rape in Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This was some time ago, and I realize you may not be responding directly to \nme, but I feel it's necessary to revisit the comment I originally made which \nspawned the conversation, if for no other reason than to put rant mode in \nperspective:\n\n*******\nThis reminds me (in a way only loosely connected with what you've said) of\nsomething that I find a little disturbing in Wolfe's novels- the frequency\nof rape committed by his protagonists or major characters. Which is NOT, I\nmust stress, to say that I think it's some kind of wish fulfillment or\nfetish on his part, it's not presented that way at all... it's not\ngratuitous, and when it does appear it tends to be a major thematic element,\netc.\n\nI guess what I'm saying is that the frequency with which the \"Rape and\nForgiveness\" theme comes up makes me a little morbidly uncomfortable.\n*******\n\nI can only speak for myself, but I don't think anyone else was displaying \nthe attitude you're referring to, and I took pains to explicitly say that I \nwas *not*.\n\nI'm fully aware of exactly what you're talking about. However, I'm not \ntalking about any single event in his stories and I'm not just howling \"RAPE \nIS BAD\" (duh). Nonetheless, the frequency of the theme (rather than any \nparticular instance of it) has made me uncomfortable, whether that's right \nor wrong - I can't really help that, though perhaps discussing it may make a \ndifference.\n\nGiven that, taking a look at what you've said I would say that it does *not* \nappear to be used as a matter of historical flavor or general depiction of \nthe barbaric lands his stories take place in, because these are not just \ncommitted by random ruffians or side characters. Sometimes (often, I think) \nthe characters involved are ones that we're sympathetic to. It seems to be \nmore making a point about the savagery present in every individual mind, \neven those which are seemingly \"nice\", rather than placing the danger out \nthere in the world at large. This is not exactly an unprecedented thought \neither, when it comes down to it.\n\nIf I break down my discomfort based on this, I get two general, related \nquestions. First, is this negative aspect of the human soul (independent of \nits truth - I don't really disagree with the truth of it) necessarily \ncentral to most of Wolfe's longer stories? I'm not really sure. Second, if \nthis negative aspect *is* a necessary point to bring out in the story he's \ntrying to tell, for what reasons can we infer that he's expressing it in the \n*particular* form of sexual violence. Archetypal, perhaps? Again, I don't \nknow.\n\nThis isn't really an essential thread, though I don't think it's necessarily \nan unworthy one. I don't mind if this discussion continues or is dropped, \nbut if it is continued I would just like it to not be continued in the terms \nof the rant mode. Respectfully,\n\nChris" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rant mode turned on:\n\nHey, look, get a grip.\n Wolfe is dealing with human depravity, almost all the time.\n He has some really bad women.\n He has some really bad men.\n Guess what really bad men, and even men who are not so bad, have \nbeen doing to helpless women for thousands of years? Right. You got it.\n Wolfe knows history. Rape is relatively rare in modern warfare, IF \nthe army is American or British or Israeli or Western European. It's par \nfor the course in all the rest of human history. Like in former Jugoslavia \nduring the 1990s.\n A friend of mine visited Pakistan a few years ago. He said you see \nvirtually no women in public. Why? because any unaccompanied woman is \"fair \ngame\" for rape.\n Wolfe's rapes are offensive. They're supposed to be. You're \nsupposed to feel like vomiting.\n But they are NOT gratuitous.\n\nNow, rant mode turned off.\n\nNutria\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-04-21T17:18:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Rape in Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:46 AM 4/21/2003, you wrote:\nThis was some time ago, and I realize you may not be responding directly \nto me, but I feel it's necessary to revisit the comment I originally made \nwhich spawned the conversation, if for no other reason than to put rant \nmode in perspective:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Naw, it was just a general rant. And I meant it semi-humorously, \nnot intending to distress you or anyone else. My apologies to whomever I \nmay have offended.\n\nYou wrote: It seems to be more making a point about the savagery present in \nevery individual mind, even those which are seemingly \"nice\", rather than \nplacing the danger out there in the world at large. This is not exactly an \nunprecedented thought either, when it comes down to it.\n\nIf I break down my discomfort based on this, I get two general, related \nquestions. First, is this negative aspect of the human soul (independent of \nits truth - I don't really disagree with the truth of it) necessarily \ncentral to most of Wolfe's longer stories? I'm not really sure. Second, if \nthis negative aspect *is* a necessary point to bring out in the story he's \ntrying to tell, for what reasons can we infer that he's expressing it in \nthe *particular* form of sexual violence. Archetypal, perhaps? Again, I \ndon't know.\n\nI reply:\n I think it is somewhat archetypal. After all, rape combines \nseveral aspects of sin: exploitation, predation, violence, sexual \ndisfunction, etc. It relates to Wolfean themes about religion and \ngovernment, especially protection, and to his interest in man-woman \nrelationships.\n Also, in terms of \"centrality,\" we've commented before here that \nWolfe points to \"salvation\" off the page, so to speak. God is the only True \nLover, and human being ought to be like God (images of God) in how they \ntreat one another. But they aren't.\n It might be interesting to list and analyze all the rapes in \nWolfe, starting with the abuse of the female slave in *5th Head.*\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-04-21T18:43:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Rape in Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More preemptive shots\n\nI just remembered Io in SotM. But that wasn't really a rape \"scene\" was it?\nIt is vaguely alluded to (which is probably why I keep forgetting about it).\n\nAnd in reading the posts from this weekend I see someone has noted a rape in\ntBotSS. I haven't finished that yet so I'll have to give it to you. But,\nneither of the two I know about are dealt with favorably IMO and neither\nmade me as uncomfortable as say the rape scene in Donaldson's \"Lord Foul's\nBane\" (to pick a quite mainstream example) which was surely not the most\nshocking but dealt with rather sympathetically from the POV of the\nprotagonist.\n\nAny others from Wolfe?\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nTo: \nSent: Monday, April 21, 2003 1:01 PM\nSubject: (urth) Rape and Misogyny in Wolfe\nI feeling pretty dense right now since I can think of only one rape in my\nreading of Wolfe right now: the infamous act by Severian on the\nsemi-conscious Jolenta. I'm tracing my memory for any others and I just\ncan't come up with any others -- I recently re-read tFHoC and I don't\nrecall\na rape of a female slave.\n\nI for one would appreciate a listing of the rapes -- particularly any\n\"Rape\nas Salvation\" events (the Jolenta one does not apply IMO).\n\nAlso, it has been frequently reference that Wolfe exhibits misogyny. I've\nyet to encounter it (and notice it -- which may be revealing about me)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "curious what other readers have read in Wolfe that they consider to be\nmisogynistic. Possibly it is in works I've yet to read.\n\nAs a premtive shot, I don't consider the Trivigaunti to an example of\nmisogyny. Trivigaunte does not seem to be anymore distopian than Viron\nwhich\nis quite machismotic -- and we are constantly reminded that men aren't\ntreated any worse there than women are in Viron.\n\n--- Crush\n\n\n\n--" } ] } ] }