Subject: (urth) Rape in Wolfe

From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:31:46 +0000

Rant mode turned on:

Hey, look, get a grip.
         Wolfe is dealing with human depravity, almost all the time.
         He has some really bad women.
         He has some really bad men.
         Guess what really bad men, and even men who are not so bad, have 
been doing to helpless women for thousands of years? Right. You got it.
         Wolfe knows history. Rape is relatively rare in modern warfare, IF 
the army is American or British or Israeli or Western European. It's par 
for the course in all the rest of human history. Like in former Jugoslavia 
during the 1990s.
         A friend of mine visited Pakistan a few years ago. He said you see 
virtually no women in public. Why? because any unaccompanied woman is "fair 
game" for rape.
         Wolfe's rapes are offensive. They're supposed to be. You're 
supposed to feel like vomiting.
         But they are NOT gratuitous.

Now, rant mode turned off.

Nutria

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:46:25 +0000

This was some time ago, and I realize you may not be responding directly to 
me, but I feel it's necessary to revisit the comment I originally made which 
spawned the conversation, if for no other reason than to put rant mode in 
perspective:

*******
This reminds me (in a way only loosely connected with what you've said) of
something that I find a little disturbing in Wolfe's novels- the frequency
of rape committed by his protagonists or major characters. Which is NOT, I
must stress, to say that I think it's some kind of wish fulfillment or
fetish on his part, it's not presented that way at all... it's not
gratuitous, and when it does appear it tends to be a major thematic element,
etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that the frequency with which the "Rape and
Forgiveness" theme comes up makes me a little morbidly uncomfortable.
*******

I can only speak for myself, but I don't think anyone else was displaying 
the attitude you're referring to, and I took pains to explicitly say that I 
was *not*.

I'm fully aware of exactly what you're talking about. However, I'm not 
talking about any single event in his stories and I'm not just howling "RAPE 
IS BAD" (duh). Nonetheless, the frequency of the theme (rather than any 
particular instance of it) has made me uncomfortable, whether that's right 
or wrong - I can't really help that, though perhaps discussing it may make a 
difference.

Given that, taking a look at what you've said I would say that it does *not* 
appear to be used as a matter of historical flavor or general depiction of 
the barbaric lands his stories take place in, because these are not just 
committed by random ruffians or side characters. Sometimes (often, I think) 
the characters involved are ones that we're sympathetic to. It seems to be 
more making a point about the savagery present in every individual mind, 
even those which are seemingly "nice", rather than placing the danger out 
there in the world at large. This is not exactly an unprecedented thought 
either, when it comes down to it.

If I break down my discomfort based on this, I get two general, related 
questions. First, is this negative aspect of the human soul (independent of 
its truth - I don't really disagree with the truth of it) necessarily 
central to most of Wolfe's longer stories? I'm not really sure. Second, if 
this negative aspect *is* a necessary point to bring out in the story he's 
trying to tell, for what reasons can we infer that he's expressing it in the 
*particular* form of sexual violence. Archetypal, perhaps? Again, I don't 
know.

This isn't really an essential thread, though I don't think it's necessarily 
an unworthy one. I don't mind if this discussion continues or is dropped, 
but if it is continued I would just like it to not be continued in the terms 
of the rant mode. Respectfully,

Chris

>Now, rant mode turned off.

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:18:49 +0000

At 11:46 AM 4/21/2003, you wrote:
>This was some time ago, and I realize you may not be responding directly 
>to me, but I feel it's necessary to revisit the comment I originally made 
>which spawned the conversation, if for no other reason than to put rant 
>mode in perspective:

         Naw, it was just a general rant. And I meant it semi-humorously, 
not intending to distress you or anyone else. My apologies to whomever I 
may have offended.

You wrote: It seems to be more making a point about the savagery present in 
every individual mind, even those which are seemingly "nice", rather than 
placing the danger out there in the world at large. This is not exactly an 
unprecedented thought either, when it comes down to it.

If I break down my discomfort based on this, I get two general, related 
questions. First, is this negative aspect of the human soul (independent of 
its truth - I don't really disagree with the truth of it) necessarily 
central to most of Wolfe's longer stories? I'm not really sure. Second, if 
this negative aspect *is* a necessary point to bring out in the story he's 
trying to tell, for what reasons can we infer that he's expressing it in 
the *particular* form of sexual violence. Archetypal, perhaps? Again, I 
don't know.

I reply:
         I think it is somewhat archetypal. After all, rape combines 
several aspects of sin: exploitation, predation, violence, sexual 
disfunction, etc. It relates to Wolfean themes about religion and 
government, especially protection, and to his interest in man-woman 
relationships.
         Also, in terms of "centrality," we've commented before here that 
Wolfe points to "salvation" off the page, so to speak. God is the only True 
Lover, and human being ought to be like God (images of God) in how they 
treat one another. But they aren't.
         It might be interesting to list and analyze all the rapes in 
Wolfe, starting with the abuse of the female slave in *5th Head.*

Nutria

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:43:58 +0000

More preemptive shots

I just remembered Io in SotM. But that wasn't really a rape "scene" was it?
It is vaguely alluded to (which is probably why I keep forgetting about it).

And in reading the posts from this weekend I see someone has noted a rape in
tBotSS. I haven't finished that yet so I'll have to give it to you. But,
neither of the two I know about are dealt with favorably IMO and neither
made me as uncomfortable as say the rape scene in Donaldson's "Lord Foul's
Bane" (to pick a quite mainstream example) which was surely not the most
shocking but dealt with rather sympathetically from the POV of the
protagonist.

Any others from Wolfe?

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at hotpop.com>
To: <urth at urth.net>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 1:01 PM
Subject: (urth) Rape and Misogyny in Wolfe

> I feeling pretty dense right now since I can think of only one rape in my
> reading of Wolfe right now: the infamous act by Severian on the
> semi-conscious Jolenta. I'm tracing my memory for any others and I just
> can't come up with any others -- I recently re-read tFHoC and I don't
recall
> a rape of a female slave.
>
> I for one would appreciate a listing of the rapes -- particularly any
"Rape
> as Salvation" events (the Jolenta one does not apply IMO).
>
> Also, it has been frequently reference that Wolfe exhibits misogyny. I've
> yet to encounter it (and notice it -- which may be revealing about me).
I'm
> curious what other readers have read in Wolfe that they consider to be
> misogynistic. Possibly it is in works I've yet to read.
>
> As a premtive shot, I don't consider the Trivigaunti to an example of
> misogyny. Trivigaunte does not seem to be anymore distopian than Viron
which
> is quite machismotic -- and we are constantly reminded that men aren't
> treated any worse there than women are in Viron.
>
> --- Crush
>
>
>
> --

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