{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3961", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3961, "subject": "Rape and Misogyny in Wolfe", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-04-21T18:01:49+00:00", "last": "2003-04-22T06:23:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-04-21T18:01:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rape and Misogyny in Wolfe", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I feeling pretty dense right now since I can think of only one rape in my\nreading of Wolfe right now: the infamous act by Severian on the\nsemi-conscious Jolenta. I'm tracing my memory for any others and I just\ncan't come up with any others -- I recently re-read tFHoC and I don't recall\na rape of a female slave.\n\nI for one would appreciate a listing of the rapes -- particularly any \"Rape\nas Salvation\" events (the Jolenta one does not apply IMO).\n\nAlso, it has been frequently reference that Wolfe exhibits misogyny. I've\nyet to encounter it (and notice it -- which may be revealing about me). I'm\ncurious what other readers have read in Wolfe that they consider to be\nmisogynistic. Possibly it is in works I've yet to read.\n\nAs a premtive shot, I don't consider the Trivigaunti to an example of\nmisogyny. Trivigaunte does not seem to be anymore distopian than Viron which\nis quite machismotic -- and we are constantly reminded that men aren't\ntreated any worse there than women are in Viron.\n\n--- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-04-21T18:39:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Rape and Misogyny in Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Having time only for a \"short\" reply...\n\nTo Nutria: No offense taken, at least by me. I just couldn't be sure, and \nwanted to clarify what was being talked about.\n\nre: the question at hand\nThere is one, I believe, in the Latro books. The way those are written makes \nthe incident hazy in my memory and I unfortunately can't dredge up the \ndetails (might as well ask Latro, for all the good I am there).\n\nBest example, I believe, is Horn and Seawrack in OBW.\n\nSeverian, of course, you've mentioned.\n\nSilk doesn't seem to get dragged into this (at least not in the Long Sun \nseries), but Auk does.\n\nUsually there are extenuating circumstances, as alga pointed out. These \nextenuating circumstances aren't enough to excuse any of them, however (as \nHorn himself points out to Seawrack, and Auk may have said something similar \ncome to think of it).\n\nre: misogyny, I tend to think the word has been extended to refer to a lot \nof things beyond its real scope - such that it gets to be very difficult to \nhave a sensible discussion about it. I would vigorously deny that Wolfe is a \nmisogynist if the accusation were made. A claim might be made that his \nmetaphors and female characters reflect a general attitude that is \nobjectionable - to actually debate that would require such care that I'm not \nsure I'm quite smart enough to take part in that. But even if you grant that \nmuch, this is still not misogyny IMHO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I feeling pretty dense right now since I can think of only one rape in my\nreading of Wolfe right now: the infamous act by Severian on the\nsemi-conscious Jolenta. I'm tracing my memory for any others and I just\ncan't come up with any others -- I recently re-read tFHoC and I don't \nrecall\na rape of a female slave.\n\nI for one would appreciate a listing of the rapes -- particularly any \"Rape\nas Salvation\" events (the Jolenta one does not apply IMO).\n\nAlso, it has been frequently reference that Wolfe exhibits misogyny. I've\nyet to encounter it (and notice it -- which may be revealing about me). I'm\ncurious what other readers have read in Wolfe that they consider to be\nmisogynistic. Possibly it is in works I've yet to read.\n\nAs a premtive shot, I don't consider the Trivigaunti to an example of\nmisogyny. Trivigaunte does not seem to be anymore distopian than Viron \nwhich\nis quite machismotic -- and we are constantly reminded that men aren't\ntreated any worse there than women are in Viron.\n\n--- Crush\n\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-04-21T19:56:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Rape and Misogyny in Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chris wrote:\nre: the question at hand\nThere is one, I believe, in the Latro books. The way those are written \nmakes the incident hazy in my memory and I unfortunately can't dredge up \nthe details (might as well ask Latro, for all the good I am there)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Io is raped between the chapters. She's really just a child, to boot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Best example, I believe, is Horn and Seawrack in OBW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Of course, she's a siren and Odysseus could not help himself -- or \ncould he?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian, of course, you've mentioned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Memory does not oppress me, but fails me. Lots of sex, but I don't \nrecall Sev forcing any women. Someone remind me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk doesn't seem to get dragged into this (at least not in the Long Sun \nseries), but Auk does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Well, also there's the Christmas story about the little boy alone \nin an automatized house, \"rescued\" by a soldier who clearly has ... plans \n... for him.\n And in 5th Head, I'm referring to the third novella, where a \nfemale slave is brought in to service the soldier, Clinton-style, while he \nis working. IMO, making servants do things like this is rape. Maybe \"sexual \nexploitation\" is better, but that may be a distinction w/o much of a \ndifference.\n There's another novelette wherein a female space captain makes \nsexual use of an underling male. Exploitation, anyway.\n Of course, maybe given how much Wolfe has written, there aren't \nTHAT many rape scenes after all! I can't recall any in Devil, Pandora, \nThere Are Doors, Castleview, Free Live Free." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Usually there are extenuating circumstances, as alga pointed out. These \nextenuating circumstances aren't enough to excuse any of them, however (as \nHorn himself points out to Seawrack, and Auk may have said something \nsimilar come to think of it).\n\nre: misogyny, I tend to think the word has been extended to refer to a lot \nof things beyond its real scope - such that it gets to be very difficult \nto have a sensible discussion about it. I would vigorously deny that Wolfe \nis a misogynist if the accusation were made. A claim might be made that \nhis metaphors and female characters reflect a general attitude that is \nobjectionable - to actually debate that would require such care that I'm \nnot sure I'm quite smart enough to take part in that. But even if you \ngrant that much, this is still not misogyny IMHO." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I agree. Wolfe is an equal opportunity critic of human sin and \nfailings!\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David DiGiacomo", "address": "david at slack.com" }, "date": "2003-04-22T06:23:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Rape and Misogyny in Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \n\nI for one would appreciate a listing of the rapes -- particularly any \"Rape\nas Salvation\" events (the Jolenta one does not apply IMO)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I found the rape of Mora to be most objectionable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, it has been frequently reference that Wolfe exhibits misogyny. I've\nyet to encounter it (and notice it -- which may be revealing about me). I'm\ncurious what other readers have read in Wolfe that they consider to be\nmisogynistic. Possibly it is in works I've yet to read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"The Death of Dr. Island\" is in a class by itself, but certainly \"Seven\nAmerican Nights\" and \"The Ziggurat\"." } ] } ] }