Subject: (urth) Rape and Misogyny in Wolfe

From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:01:49 +0000

I feeling pretty dense right now since I can think of only one rape in my
reading of Wolfe right now: the infamous act by Severian on the
semi-conscious Jolenta. I'm tracing my memory for any others and I just
can't come up with any others -- I recently re-read tFHoC and I don't recall
a rape of a female slave.

I for one would appreciate a listing of the rapes -- particularly any "Rape
as Salvation" events (the Jolenta one does not apply IMO).

Also, it has been frequently reference that Wolfe exhibits misogyny. I've
yet to encounter it (and notice it -- which may be revealing about me). I'm
curious what other readers have read in Wolfe that they consider to be
misogynistic. Possibly it is in works I've yet to read.

As a premtive shot, I don't consider the Trivigaunti to an example of
misogyny. Trivigaunte does not seem to be anymore distopian than Viron which
is quite machismotic -- and we are constantly reminded that men aren't
treated any worse there than women are in Viron.

--- Crush

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:39:24 +0000

Having time only for a "short" reply...

To Nutria: No offense taken, at least by me. I just couldn't be sure, and 
wanted to clarify what was being talked about.

re: the question at hand
There is one, I believe, in the Latro books. The way those are written makes 
the incident hazy in my memory and I unfortunately can't dredge up the 
details (might as well ask Latro, for all the good I am there).

Best example, I believe, is Horn and Seawrack in OBW.

Severian, of course, you've mentioned.

Silk doesn't seem to get dragged into this (at least not in the Long Sun 
series), but Auk does.

Usually there are extenuating circumstances, as alga pointed out. These 
extenuating circumstances aren't enough to excuse any of them, however (as 
Horn himself points out to Seawrack, and Auk may have said something similar 
come to think of it).

re: misogyny, I tend to think the word has been extended to refer to a lot 
of things beyond its real scope - such that it gets to be very difficult to 
have a sensible discussion about it. I would vigorously deny that Wolfe is a 
misogynist if the accusation were made. A claim might be made that his 
metaphors and female characters reflect a general attitude that is 
objectionable - to actually debate that would require such care that I'm not 
sure I'm quite smart enough to take part in that. But even if you grant that 
much, this is still not misogyny IMHO.

>treated any worse there than women are in Viron.

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:56:50 +0000

Chris wrote:

>re: the question at hand
>There is one, I believe, in the Latro books. The way those are written 
>makes the incident hazy in my memory and I unfortunately can't dredge up 
>the details (might as well ask Latro, for all the good I am there).

         Io is raped between the chapters. She's really just a child, to boot.

>Best example, I believe, is Horn and Seawrack in OBW.

         Of course, she's a siren and Odysseus could not help himself -- or 
could he?

>Severian, of course, you've mentioned.

         Memory does not oppress me, but fails me. Lots of sex, but I don't 
recall Sev forcing any women. Someone remind me.

>Silk doesn't seem to get dragged into this (at least not in the Long Sun 

         Well, also there's the Christmas story about the little boy alone 
in an automatized house, "rescued" by a soldier who clearly has ... plans 
... for him.
         And in 5th Head, I'm referring to the third novella, where a 
female slave is brought in to service the soldier, Clinton-style, while he 
is working. IMO, making servants do things like this is rape. Maybe "sexual 
exploitation" is better, but that may be a distinction w/o much of a 
difference.
         There's another novelette wherein a female space captain makes 
sexual use of an underling male. Exploitation, anyway.
         Of course, maybe given how much Wolfe has written, there aren't 
THAT many rape scenes after all! I can't recall any in Devil, Pandora, 
There Are Doors, Castleview, Free Live Free.

>Horn himself points out to Seawrack, and Auk may have said something 
>similar come to think of it).
>
>of things beyond its real scope - such that it gets to be very difficult 
>to have a sensible discussion about it. I would vigorously deny that Wolfe 
>is a misogynist if the accusation were made. A claim might be made that 
>his metaphors and female characters reflect a general attitude that is 
>objectionable - to actually debate that would require such care that I'm 
>not sure I'm quite smart enough to take part in that. But even if you 
>grant that much, this is still not misogyny IMHO.

         I agree. Wolfe is an equal opportunity critic of human sin and 
failings!

Nutria

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From: David DiGiacomo <david at slack.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 06:23:26 +0000

>as Salvation" events (the Jolenta one does not apply IMO).

I found the rape of Mora to be most objectionable.

>misogynistic. Possibly it is in works I've yet to read.

"The Death of Dr. Island" is in a class by itself, but certainly "Seven
American Nights" and "The Ziggurat".

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