{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3964", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3964, "subject": "source of charge in Jolenta rape", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-04-21T21:59:55+00:00", "last": "2003-04-21T23:47:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-04-21T21:59:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) source of charge in Jolenta rape", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nI must speak about the Jolenta \"rape\" - becuase I don't think it really is\none." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Before things spin any further away and out . . .\n\n. . . the source of the charge of the possibility of Jolenta's rape . . .\n\n. . . is none other than Severian himself, in URTH (iirc).\n\n\nThus it is not something whipped up by fan or critic.\n\nSeverian himself, writing his tale, alludes to it as possibly being rape.\nHe uses that word.\n\nOnce again, in pursuit of accuracy.\n\n=mantis=\n\nP.S. The Y series auctions have begun on eBay.\n\n=m=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/\n\neBay Auctions\nhttp://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=mr.sirius" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-04-21T22:28:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) source of charge in Jolenta rape", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that it's Severian himself who makes the charge, though I think he \nmakes it against himself fairly immediately.\n\nI also think what's been said about Jolenta is a bit unfair. It's a bit \nmuddled to explain why I come to this conclusion, but bear in mind that \neveryone involved in Talos' play is rather overtly representing something \nelse. Jolenta is \"beauty\", if you like, and Talos is clearly the \n\"writer/poet\" - what Talos does with Jolenta, and what he makes of her, is \nsomewhat telling. This may not seem important, but it helps to explain a \npassage that is otherwise confusing (and which I cannot reproduce or look \nup), in which Severian basically says that she can't help the way she is, \nand implies that *everyone* is taking advantage of/raping her - with the \npossible exception of Talos.\n\nThis may or may not be in the same league, thematically, with the others. In \nany event, I was very sadly sympathetic to Jolenta considering how \none-dimensional (by nature) a character she was.\n\nI believe, however, that at some point Severian lets slip a statement, no \nlonger than a sentence or two, that implies that (despite the fact that they \nwere lovers at some point) he had forced Thecla. I'm not confident of that \nas an assertion, but there was definitely violence involved; Severian \nthrough most of those books is very evasive w.r.t. Thecla, and one is often \nforced to re-evaluate things he's said earlier in light of things he says \nlater.\n\nChris" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I must speak about the Jolenta \"rape\" - becuase I don't think it really \nis\none." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Before things spin any further away and out . . .\n\n. . . the source of the charge of the possibility of Jolenta's rape . . .\n\n. . . is none other than Severian himself, in URTH (iirc).\n\n\nThus it is not something whipped up by fan or critic.\n\nSeverian himself, writing his tale, alludes to it as possibly being rape.\nHe uses that word.\n\nOnce again, in pursuit of accuracy.\n\n=mantis=\n\nP.S. The Y series auctions have begun on eBay.\n\n=m=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/\n\neBay Auctions\nhttp://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=mr.sirius\n\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-04-21T23:47:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) source of charge in Jolenta rape", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that it's Severian himself who makes the charge, though I think he \nmakes it against himself fairly immediately." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's also (imho) telling that he says -- using Wolfean bigwords --\nthat Jolenta, who brought out lesbian tendencies ('tribidism') in\nmany women, brought out sadistic tendencies ('algophilia') in the\ntorturer-hero." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe, however, that at some point Severian lets slip a statement, no \nlonger than a sentence or two, that implies that (despite the fact that \nthey were lovers at some point) he had forced Thecla. I'm not confident of \nthat as an assertion, but there was definitely violence involved; Severian \nthrough most of those books is very evasive w.r.t. Thecla, and one is often \nforced to re-evaluate things he's said earlier in light of things he says \nlater." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In fact I think it's not at all certain whether or not Severian\nand Thecla were ever lovers in the flesh ... Very probable, but\nthere remains the possibility that the \"memories\" of their sexual\nencounters (which only appear in the text _after_ the perverted\nEucharist in the wood) may be of Thecla's imaginings rather than\nspecific reality. The whole question must be considered alongside\nMaster Gurloes' claim that to be \"abused\" by the torturer is the\nmost shameful thing that can happen to a client ... which is\nrelevant to this question no matter whether it actually happened\nor not." } ] } ] }