Subject: (urth) source of charge in Jolenta rape

From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:59:55 +0000

Marc Aramini wrote:
>I must speak about the Jolenta "rape" - becuase I don't think it really is
>one.

Before things spin any further away and out . . .

. . . the source of the charge of the possibility of Jolenta's rape . . .

. . . is none other than Severian himself, in URTH (iirc).

Thus it is not something whipped up by fan or critic.

Severian himself, writing his tale, alludes to it as possibly being rape.
He uses that word.

Once again, in pursuit of accuracy.

=mantis=

P.S. The Y series auctions have begun on eBay.

=m=

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:28:53 +0000

I agree that it's Severian himself who makes the charge, though I think he 
makes it against himself fairly immediately.

I also think what's been said about Jolenta is a bit unfair. It's a bit 
muddled to explain why I come to this conclusion, but bear in mind that 
everyone involved in Talos' play is rather overtly representing something 
else. Jolenta is "beauty", if you like, and Talos is clearly the 
"writer/poet" - what Talos does with Jolenta, and what he makes of her, is 
somewhat telling. This may not seem important, but it helps to explain a 
passage that is otherwise confusing (and which I cannot reproduce or look 
up), in which Severian basically says that she can't help the way she is, 
and implies that *everyone* is taking advantage of/raping her - with the 
possible exception of Talos.

This may or may not be in the same league, thematically, with the others. In 
any event, I was very sadly sympathetic to Jolenta considering how 
one-dimensional (by nature) a character she was.

I believe, however, that at some point Severian lets slip a statement, no 
longer than a sentence or two, that implies that (despite the fact that they 
were lovers at some point) he had forced Thecla. I'm not confident of that 
as an assertion, but there was definitely violence involved; Severian 
through most of those books is very evasive w.r.t. Thecla, and one is often 
forced to re-evaluate things he's said earlier in light of things he says 
later.

Chris

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <katbarx at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:47:14 +0000

>makes it against himself fairly immediately.

It's also (imho) telling that he says -- using Wolfean bigwords --
that Jolenta, who brought out lesbian tendencies ('tribidism') in
many women, brought out sadistic tendencies ('algophilia') in the
torturer-hero.

>longer than a sentence or two, that implies that (despite the fact that 
>they were lovers at some point) he had forced Thecla. I'm not confident of 
>that as an assertion, but there was definitely violence involved; Severian 

In fact I think it's not at all certain whether or not Severian
and Thecla were ever lovers in the flesh ... Very probable, but
there remains the possibility that the "memories" of their sexual
encounters (which only appear in the text _after_ the perverted
Eucharist in the wood) may be of Thecla's imaginings rather than
specific reality. The whole question must be considered alongside
Master Gurloes' claim that to be "abused" by the torturer is the
most shameful thing that can happen to a client ... which is
relevant to this question no matter whether it actually happened
or not.

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