{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3969", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3969, "subject": "Generic considerations revisited", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2003-04-25T02:44:15+00:00", "last": "2003-04-25T20:36:16+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus", "address": "zibethicus at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-04-25T02:44:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Generic considerations revisited", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... _all_ fiction is set in a parallel world or alternate history." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Precisely!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Mimetic fiction, pretty much alone among the genres, is ashamed of its \nfantastic nature and tries to hide it.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...or is merely ignorant of it...\n\nNutria:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A difference between a fictive universe that the author intends to \ncorrespond to the real world, and a fictive universe that introduces \nthings that are not at present in the real world" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect that all literature is the consequence of a process of selection \nand elimination - at story is told which does not and cannot correspond to \nany 'real' events which may be their basis.\n\nThis, firstly, because 'real' life is distinctly plotless and, frequently, \nmotiveless, and, secondly, because 'real' life cannot be narrated in its - \noh, say its 'raw' form - for exactly that reason.\n\nWell, perhaps it can be, but in that eventuality it is liable to wind up \nlike that video I heard of a while back of somebody's drive down a British \nfreeway - the camera is simply pointed fixedly out of the car, and one sees \nwhat the camera sees for HOURS.\n\nLike Warhol's film of the Empire State Building - one shot sustained for \nHOURS - it might have substance as a dadaesque prank, but it is hard to \nimagine a large audience demanding repeated viewings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While the texts in question are rich in their coverage of the >characters' \nsubjective lives, they are ultimately object-oriented; >they take place in \na universe where the \"meaning\" of things and events >is the events \nthemselves, and not how they serve to reflect and >comment on the \ncharacters' psyches." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This intrigues me. How is this consistent with Serverian's realisation of \nhis equivalence with the Conciliator?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Further, when presenting what I, subjectively, regard as plainly \nmiraculous, Wolfe seems to take a special glee in providing an out -- >in \ngiving or hinting at a \"scientific,\" object-oriented explanation >for the \nevents." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But consider the ending of EotNS - Severian becomes one of the \ncreator-figures of the New Urth. I would suggest that there is a mythical \n(if not) mystical function to the story...although this precise detail may \nhave been a later development..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Asking about the mechanism by which Gregor Samsa is turned into a >giant \nblattidaean is approximately as valid as asking why Typhon is >such a \nbastard. You can ask, but the text won't respond." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Intriguing analysis. It clarifies your earlier observations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "his Venusian jungles are not really about Venusian jungles at all (and >in \nfact frequently get bleshed with South American jungles); they're >about \nthe experience of being in a certain condition that the heat and >wet and \ndanger of the jungle represents." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, and I'd further suggest that one of the reasons for WSB's achivement \nas an author is his recognition of the inherently fantastic nature of all \nliterary portrayal, as you have pointed out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know, my edition of \"Crash\" doesn't seem to have that intro. I bought \nit a looooong time ago. It must have been added in later (possibly \npost-Cronenberg?) editions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's credited as the introduction to the 1974 French edition. It's been in \nall the copies I have had since I started lending, losing and duly \nre-purchasing it in the early 1980s. I find that it's a very interesting \nmanifesto, at least as regards the 'internal apocalypse' period.\n\nI'll add that Ballard is a significant instance of the acceptance of SF \nconcepts by MF literature. I recently read 'Super-Cannes' with enjoyment \nand interest, and found that (IMO) it really didn't differ too greatly in \nits premises from the 'hard SF' period. Perhaps the reason it has become \naccepted as MF is that, as Ballard states, the concepts of MF have now \ncaught up with (or been overwhelmed by?) SF." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Note that even when we talk about Severian's personality we're inclined to \ntalk about objective matters in relation to it: how the Hieros (and \nothers?) manipulate spacetime to shape him, for example. In SF, the psyche \nitself often becomes an object, and projects itself into the \"objective\" \nworld of the text via \"psi\" powers and the like." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would you include in this perception Severian's destiny as, not merely the \nAutarch, but the Conciliator? The Claw, after all, is ultimately 'powered' \nby Severian as the Conciliator - although at the time Severian encounters \nthe Claw as a gem, he is unaware of this..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then, NINETEEN EIGHTY- FOUR it isn't really about Winston >Smith; \nit's about Ingsoc, its primary areas of concern are >socioeconomic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless, perhaps, Orwell intended Smith's initial lack of character as a \nimplicit comment about the socioeconomic nature of Ingsoc. One might say \nthat precisely what troubles Smith is the arrival of an incipient \npersonality where this is forbidden; Orwell obviously read 'We' attentively." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I should have said that Le Guin uses the tools of the SF t-and-d; THE \nDISPOSSESSED is very much part of that ongoing conversation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to mention being (partly) about the practice of science and having a \nworking scientist as its 'hero'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "THE DREAMS OUR STUFF IS MADE OF" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marked for attention." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some does. Some doesn't. Romance novels, for example, generally don't. \nTechnothrillers -- what Crichton, really, writes -- generally do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, I was thinking more of that dreary, obscure and little-selling 'genre' \ngenerally known as 'serious fiction'..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would expect that you'd be most actually _enjoy_ (if you can get >hold of \nit) the paperback collection variously titled 6 X H or THE >UNPLEASANT \nPROFESSION OF JONATHAN HOAG." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, at this juncture I should probably confess that my father was a \n'Golden Age' adherent; he had 'Astoundings' et al going back to the late \n40s, if I recall correctly, as well as hundreds if not thousands of \npaperbacks by Heinlein, Asimov, 'Doc' Smith, and a multitude of other \nauthors whose names now escape me. I've probably already read 'Jonathan \nHoag', but not at an age where I could really profit from it...thanks for \nthe suggestion, which I will pursue..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "H'mmm. I don't think that _this_ story could be told, but a story that was \npretty similar at the level of plot could be told in a purely fantastic \nrealm, certainly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry - that's a much better way of putting it!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "LORD OF THE RINGS and the Arthurian cycle take place in \"the mythic past,\" \nan ahistorical past whose relation to our present is epistemic rather than \nontic, if you follow me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I _think_ so; the settings of the myth-cycles are ultimately inspecific \nbecause the purpose of the myths is to pursue epistemological knowledge \nabout who and why we are, rather than to provide ontological knowledge \nregarding our creation and purpose for being in the sense which a 'real' \nreligion/religious myth does - needing a specific locale for this \npurpose...is that it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is possible but kind of a \"so what?\" hypothesis. Since we have no \nspecific differences to point at, they're human enough for purposes of \npsychological \"identification\" by the reader." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, indeed...the point was not one of any great significance, but rather a \npersonal conjecture regarding BotNS which I used for illustrative purposes \nat this point.\n\nOne could, however, imagine a SF work which used subtle cumulative \n'psychological' detail to implicitly draw a portrait of a character or a \nsociety which the attentive reader would _gradually_ understand to be \ninhuman..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not just Palm Sunday. Didn't he also see the Crucifixion?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure, must check." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the \"humans\" aboard the Whorl (and possibly on Urth) have been genetically \nengineered in a way that makes them more subject to certain kinds of \nintrusion by dictators --" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What a horrifying thought. Fortunately or otherwise, history as well as \ncontemporality proves only too clearly that humans are already all-too-ready \nto succumb to dictatorial leaders..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "H'mmm. Really? I found that in my first reading I was _fascinated_ by \nobject-oriented questions, from the socioeconomics of the Guilds, the \nAutarch, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To recall my first reading, I am obliged to return in thought to the \nmid-80s; something I am generally loath to do.\n\nHowever, on my first reading of SotT I was simply captivated by the story. \nIf I had any analytic notions at all, it would probably have been simply \nthat I was being treated to a major literary event. Analysis came later..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-- regarding which, if I'm not mistaken, Wolfe gives us a >tantalizingly \nbrief appendix," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed; claiming incomplete knowledge in consequence of the frustratingly \nincomplete archaeological record of the far future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The point here is that we've been forced to radically revise our \ndefinition of what the word \"mountain\" means in this culture twice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr. Wolfe is one of the most painstaking of stylists, and his use of \nlanguage is slyly vertiginous in BotNS; another of its treasures which is \ntoo often overlooked." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Why is scientific authenticity opposed to suspension of disbelief? \nScientific authenticity is, rather, a tool in service of suspension of \ndisbelief.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is not at all opposed to this purpose; I agree completely. What I was \ntrying to observe is that the initial publicity attempted to categorise SotT \nwith the Gormenghast trilogy, which is avowedly fantastic in that it is a \ncombination of, among many other elements, the Gothick castle in the \noriginal Otranto sense, Peake's recalled childhood in China, and a comedy of \nmanners / eccentricities in a very English Dickensian sense.\n\nGormenghast could not exist as it is portrayed; however, Peake places it in \nsome unspecified location _on Earth_, in that there is a moon which appears \nto be our own, although the stellar map is inspecific it appears to be our \nown, the flora and fauna are earthly as far as it is described, etc. Yet, \nfor instance, no other castles exist in the region, or if they do they are \nnever mentioned. Yet Lady Groan's unhappy marriage to Lord Sepulchrave \nimplicitly is that of a foreigner of some sort, or at least a different \nlineage...but from where?\n\nPeake, I would guess, was thinking as a poet and a painter when he wrote \n'Titus Groan'; the strength of his achievement is that he succeeds in making \nus forget about all these improbabilities for the duration of the reading.\n\nThe initial bracketing of SotT with the Gormenghast trilogy suggested to me \nthat the publishers, at least, regarded the work as one involving suspension \nof disbelief in this sense, which is a property more commonly associated \nwith 'fantastic literature' rather than 'SF' per se. (This apart from the \nother similarities which you have already noted.)\n\n...But I find myself wondering very greatly - partly in consequence of this \ndiscussion - whether these categories are of any great use to anyone other \nthan publishers and book-sellers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't recall those comparisons, but it's an interesting pairing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I could quote it, but my last copy has been out on loan somewhere for about \nthree or four years, now. It was my third or fourth copy, too...(sigh...) \nWill I ever learn?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This has been a most interesting conversation for me also, and apparently \nfor several others who've jumped in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you for a stimulating and useful discussion!\n\n->Zx<-\n\n\n(snip sig)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-04-25T20:36:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Generic considerations revisited", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A difference between a fictive universe that the author intends \nto >correspond to the real world, and a fictive universe that \nintroduces >things that are not at present in the real world" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From the Archdeacon:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suspect that all literature is the consequence of a process of selection \nand elimination - at story is told which does not and cannot correspond to \nany 'real' events which may be their basis.\n\nThis, firstly, because 'real' life is distinctly plotless and, frequently, \nmotiveless, and, secondly, because 'real' life cannot be narrated in its - \noh, say its 'raw' form - for exactly that reason." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I'd say so. Art abstracts from life in order to enhance and/or \nanalyze-discuss some aspect of life. True of all art. I think that's what \nBlattid is getting at with his subjective/objective schema: What is it that \nis primarily being abstracted from life and being analyzed in some way?\n I would ask: What is the aspect of life that is unique to SF that \nis somehow present in SF works and not in others? It would seem to be \nspeculations of some sort about or involving science and technology that \ndoes not presently \"exist\" in our present world. Such speculations can be \nmerely present and not the main thing, an SF element in what Blattid would \nput as MF; or they can be the overriding factor, in what Blattid would \nconsider SF.\n I don't know if this advances the discussion any. It's fun, though.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }