{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3980", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3980, "subject": "latro and ares / mine of saltus", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2003-05-07T17:23:31+00:00", "last": "2003-05-07T21:01:44+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2003-05-07T17:23:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) latro and ares / mine of saltus", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm reading the soldier books for the second time and I'm about 3/4 through \nSoldier of Arete. So far, the major gods conspicuous in their absence are \nZeus, Hermes, and Ares. While there is a chapter entitled Ares and others, \nI'm pretty sure Ares doesn't make a direct appearance. Here is my question \nfor the list - Is latro an avatar of Ares? He has all the qualities of Ares \n(thus Soldier of \"Are\"te.) There is that big discussion at the beginning of \nSoldier of the Mist where they talk about greeting a tradesman who has a \nfamily in a war by certain titles depending on where he is, and I thought this \nwould apply nicely to Latro - he would seem to be a soldier, so everyone \ntreats him as a soldier. Yet the gods don't treat Latro like just another \nsoldier.\n\nThere is also a scene in Soldier of Arete in which someone states that Ares \nmay be Ahura Mazda, the all good God, in disguise. There are other statements \nmade that indicate Pleistorus is angry at the Thracian King Kotys for his \ntreatment of the amazons and Latro - and note that Latro is especially \ntroubled by the death of amazon women - they are the daughters of Ares. Also, \nin at least one place the claim is made that Pleistorus (or Ares) is \"inside\" \nLatro in some sense. Also, the ironic statement of Hypereides right before \nPart Three of Soldier of Arete (p 498 in the omnibus \"'Pleistorus didn't come \naround to help us. I wish he had - we could have used him'\" But I think he \ndid.\n\nThe evidence against Ares being Latro must certainly include Latro's early \nmemories of his childhood and his farmland. On the other hand, Nike always \nfollows Latro invisibly, and I'm pretty sure Ares is at least living inside \nLatro or possessing him (if he is not entirely homoousious with Latro). Could \nit be that the Great Mother is mad at her son?\n\nAlso, on a different note, I'm pretty sure the dream of baldanders in the Inn \nis related to the mine at saltus: clashing teeth and broken bodies under the \nsurface of the earth. later, he denies that he dreams, at the end of Shadow \nof the Torturer after Malrubius appears.\n\nAnybody else think Latro is divine?\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-05-07T21:01:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) latro and ares / mine of saltus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm. Interesting.\n Latro is certainly linked with Mars, being a Roman and all. For \nme, that had been enough. Now I don't know.\n Add to your data his tryst with Venus/Aphrodite, lover of \nMars/Ares. I brought this up to Wolfe in my looong interview, mentioning \nthat Venus was married to Vulcan and had adultery with Mars (plug in the \nGreek names as you wish). He acted confused, saying that he had thought \nVenus married to Mars, at least in some versions. I say, \"acted\" confused. \nIt's hard to believe he did not know this. Which made me wonder if perhaps \n\"more\" were not involved.\n Anyway, your suggestions add a Homeric twist to the novels, a \nconflict among the gods played out also in the world of humans. As with the \nUrth novels, I guess we'd better look again at what the gods may be doing, \nfor and against each other, in the Soldier books. As with the Severian, \nSilk, and Hornsilk narratives, it looks as if there is probably a \n\"superplot\" of divine conflicts going on \"above\" the scene.\n At some point, Latro recalls learning from Persians (?) that the \nHigh God has a house with many servants. Compare one of the dreams in \n*Detective of Dreams.* As with the gods in the other Wolfe books, these are \nultimately servants of the High God, though allowed for a while to play \ntheir own games under His superintendence. I have assumed that we will get \nmore hints about the Outsider/Increate (under a different name) when we get \nto Soldier of Sidon, Sidon being near Israel. But someone said that one \nwill explore Egypt, and I guess we'll all have to brush up on the Egyptian \npantheon next!\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:23 PM 5/7/2003, you wrote:\nI'm reading the soldier books for the second time and I'm about 3/4 through\nSoldier of Arete. So far, the major gods conspicuous in their absence are\nZeus, Hermes, and Ares. While there is a chapter entitled Ares and others,\nI'm pretty sure Ares doesn't make a direct appearance. Here is my question\nfor the list - Is latro an avatar of Ares? He has all the qualities of Ares\n(thus Soldier of \"Are\"te.) There is that big discussion at the beginning of\nSoldier of the Mist where they talk about greeting a tradesman who has a\nfamily in a war by certain titles depending on where he is, and I thought \nthis\nwould apply nicely to Latro - he would seem to be a soldier, so everyone\ntreats him as a soldier. Yet the gods don't treat Latro like just another\nsoldier.\n\nThere is also a scene in Soldier of Arete in which someone states that Ares\nmay be Ahura Mazda, the all good God, in disguise. There are other \nstatements\nmade that indicate Pleistorus is angry at the Thracian King Kotys for his\ntreatment of the amazons and Latro - and note that Latro is especially\ntroubled by the death of amazon women - they are the daughters of \nAres. Also,\nin at least one place the claim is made that Pleistorus (or Ares) is \"inside\"\nLatro in some sense. Also, the ironic statement of Hypereides right before\nPart Three of Soldier of Arete (p 498 in the omnibus \"'Pleistorus didn't come\naround to help us. I wish he had - we could have used him'\" But I think he\ndid.\n\nThe evidence against Ares being Latro must certainly include Latro's early\nmemories of his childhood and his farmland. On the other hand, Nike always\nfollows Latro invisibly, and I'm pretty sure Ares is at least living inside\nLatro or possessing him (if he is not entirely homoousious with \nLatro). Could\nit be that the Great Mother is mad at her son?\n\nAlso, on a different note, I'm pretty sure the dream of baldanders in the Inn\nis related to the mine at saltus: clashing teeth and broken bodies under the\nsurface of the earth. later, he denies that he dreams, at the end of Shadow\nof the Torturer after Malrubius appears.\n\nAnybody else think Latro is divine?\n\nMarc Aramini\n\n\n\n--" } ] } ] }