{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3981",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 3981,
    "subject": "The pelagic argosy",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "2003-05-07T22:10:54+00:00",
    "last": "2003-05-08T00:58:56+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0305-3363@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "David Duffy",
        "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au"
      },
      "date": "2003-05-07T22:10:54+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) The pelagic argosy",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "While rereading Lem, I was suddenly caught by \"no more than any genuine \nheresy such as the Manichaean or the Pelagian.\"  And yes, the Pelagians\n\"emphasize human free will as the decisive element in human\nperfectibility and minimize or deny the need for divine grace and\nredemption\".  Well, it *might* be a coincidence."
        },
        {
          "kind": "sig",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD)                                         ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au  ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101  /     *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research   \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia  GPG 4D0B994A v \n\n-- "
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0305-3364@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "*THAT* Matt Weber",
        "address": "mweber at library.berkeley.edu"
      },
      "date": "2003-05-08T00:58:56+00:00",
      "subject": "Re: (urth) The pelagic argosy",
      "in_reply_to": "<urth-v0305-3363@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "While rereading Lem, I was suddenly caught by \"no more than any genuine\nheresy such as the Manichaean or the Pelagian.\"  And yes, the Pelagians\n\"emphasize human free will as the decisive element in human\nperfectibility and minimize or deny the need for divine grace and\nredemption\".  Well, it *might* be a coincidence.\n\n\n\n--\n| David Duffy (MBBS PhD)                                         ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au  ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101  /     *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research   \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia  GPG 4D0B994A v\n\n--"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Pelagius is usually seen as the counter of Augustine's views on free \nwill and human perfectibility.  Pelagius held that human beings \ncould, through the exercise of free will, choose good over evil \nindependent of God's help; Augustine's somewhat more pessimistic view \nwas that without God's grace men were irredeemably depraved.  Of \ncourse, Augustine's became the official Church party line and later \nled to the excesses of Calvin, Knox, et al.\n\nAnthony Burgess is pretty obviously Pelagian in his view of human \nperfectibility, btw...\n\nMatt\n\npoll oid alwphx, all exinos en meya.\n\tArchilochus, fl. c. 650 B.C., in E. Diehl (ed.), Anth. Lyr. Gr."
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}