{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3982", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3982, "subject": "latro and ares", "messages": 13, "voices": 5, "first": "2003-05-08T15:43:59+00:00", "last": "2003-05-09T04:15:09+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2003-05-08T15:43:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) latro and ares", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had the looming thought in the back of my mind that Latro was a god, \nprobably Ares, and then the clincher was when Thamyris starts addressing Latro \nas Pleistorus in Chapter 24 of Soldier of Arete. Unless Ares is the guy with \nthe lance that rides by Thamyris' castle while Latro is sneaking up there or \nhe appears in the next 70 or so pages, I don't think (H)e makes an appearance \nin the books. I am especially interested in the almost random manner in which \nWolfe associates Ares with Ahura Mazda, the singular God that embodies good as \nopposed to the plurality of lesser deities that proliferate on Olympos. Does \nthat make Ares an incarnation of the \"true\" God instead of just an angelic \nbeing - thereby possibly making Latro much more than a man, but something like \na trial run for Christ?\n\nAlso, I believe that Oior cannot look directly at Latro at one point in \nSoldier of the Mist because of the weird glow that suffuses Latro's body. The \nquestion is, how does latro's identity as Lucius tie in with the possibility \nof being Ares?\n\nAnd yes, Aphrodite does seem particularly anxious to couple with Ares - whose \n\"seed\" must be preserved, according to Elata.\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-05-08T16:16:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) latro and ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mark wrote in part..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am especially interested in the almost random manner in which\nWolfe associates Ares with Ahura Mazda, the singular God that embodies good \nas\nopposed to the plurality of lesser deities that proliferate on Olympos." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Slight correction ... Ahura-Mazda (Ormuzd, other spellings) is not a \n\"singular\"\ngod but one-half of a dualistic pair; the other being, of course, Ahriman, \nthe\ngod of Evil. The prophecies of Zarathustra suggest that Ahura-Mazda will be\nvictorious in the final battle, but since everything else in the religion \nposits\nthem as opposite equals, I've never quite understood how that's supposed\nto work out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does\nthat make Ares an incarnation of the \"true\" God instead of just an angelic\nbeing - thereby possibly making Latro much more than a man, but something \nlike\na trial run for Christ?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. Humans being possessed by or avatars of one of the greater\nbut of-this-world beings called \"gods\" would not be the same kind or order \nof\nthing as a human incarnation of the one transcendent God." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-05-08T17:21:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) latro and ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 2003-05-08 at 09:16, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nMark wrote in part..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am especially interested in the almost random manner in which\nWolfe associates Ares with Ahura Mazda, the singular God that embodies good \nas opposed to the plurality of lesser deities that proliferate on Olympos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Slight correction ... Ahura-Mazda (Ormuzd, other spellings) is not a \n\"singular\" god but one-half of a dualistic pair; the other being, of course, \nAhriman, the god of Evil. The prophecies of Zarathustra suggest that \nAhura-Mazda will be victorious in the final battle, but since\neverything else in the religion posits them as opposite equals, \nI've never quite understood how that's supposed to work out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not quite accurate. Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic religion.\n\nCheck out www.avesta.org.\n\n\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does\nthat make Ares an incarnation of the \"true\" God instead of just an angelic\nbeing - thereby possibly making Latro much more than a man, but something \nlike\na trial run for Christ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so. Humans being possessed by or avatars of one of the greater\nbut of-this-world beings called \"gods\" would not be the same kind or order \nof\nthing as a human incarnation of the one transcendent God.\n\n--Blattid\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* \nhttp://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-05-08T17:11:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) latro and ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:21 PM 5/8/2003, you wrote:\nOn Thu, 2003-05-08 at 09:16, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mark wrote in part..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I am especially interested in the almost random manner in which\nWolfe associates Ares with Ahura Mazda, the singular God that embodies \ngood\nas opposed to the plurality of lesser deities that proliferate on Olympos." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Slight correction ... Ahura-Mazda (Ormuzd, other spellings) is not a\n\"singular\" god but one-half of a dualistic pair; the other being, of \ncourse,\nAhriman, the god of Evil. The prophecies of Zarathustra suggest that\nAhura-Mazda will be victorious in the final battle, but since\neverything else in the religion posits them as opposite equals,\nI've never quite understood how that's supposed to work out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not quite accurate. Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic religion.\n\nCheck out www.avesta.org.\n\n\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Whatever Z. may be now, or may have been in the 1st century, the \nquestion is what it was in Latro's day. Given the friendliness of the \nPersian rulers to the Jews, it seems that ur-Zoroastrians may have thought \nthey were worshipping the same God under different names. Reading the works \nof Zarathustra, one wonders if he had not been influenced by diaspora Jews. \nRecall, for instance, that Yahweh manifests Himself in fire on the altar, \nand Z. sees fire as the manifestation of A-M. And there are other \ninteresting things. No way to prove it, of course.\n The question is whether Wolfe thinks this so or not, and it is \nworth considering that he might.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-05-08T17:52:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) latro and ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wrote then Josh wrote..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Slight correction ... Ahura-Mazda (Ormuzd, other spellings) is not a\n\"singular\" god but one-half of a dualistic pair; the other being, of \ncourse,\nAhriman, the god of Evil. The prophecies of Zarathustra suggest that\nAhura-Mazda will be victorious in the final battle, but since\neverything else in the religion posits them as opposite equals,\nI've never quite understood how that's supposed to work out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not quite accurate. Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic religion.\n\nCheck out www.avesta.org." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Josh,\n\nI believe that this is a question that isn't so simply answered. I admit\nto oversimplifying, because most people don't know much about\nZarathushtra except that Nietzsche appropriated him as a character\nin his best-known book. Similarly, SF/F fans will mostly know the names\nof Ahriman and Ahura-Mazda from John Brunner's THE TRAVELLER IN\nBLACK.\n\nThe relevant quesiton is this: Is the dualism frequently associated with\nthe Daena Vanyuhi a product of human minds (as the Gathic tradition,\nto which avesta.org clearly subscribes, holds) or is it cosmic (as in the\nlater Avestic tradition)?\n\nCheers," } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-05-08T17:59:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) latro and ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria wrote:\n Whatever Z. may be now, or may have been in the 1st century, the \nquestion is what it was in Latro's day. Given the friendliness of the \nPersian rulers to the Jews, it seems that ur-Zoroastrians may have thought \nthey were worshipping the same God under different names. Reading the works \nof Zarathustra, one wonders if he had not been influenced by diaspora Jews." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria, I would suggest that this is improbable on the face of things\n-- tradition holds that Zarathushtra lived ca. 1750 BC; this would place\nus well before the time of Moses, let alone the Diaspora. It is then\nmuch more likely that influence would have flowed in the other\ndirection, the quasi- or proto-monotheism of Zarathushtra helping to\nshape the monotheism of Abraham and Moses." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-05-08T18:44:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) latro and ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 2003-05-08 at 10:52, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nJosh wrote..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Check out www.avesta.org." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe that this is a question that isn't so simply answered. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Depends. People argue about it.\n\nNon-Zoroastrian people, just about all of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I admit\nto oversimplifying, because most people don't know much about\nZarathushtra except that Nietzsche appropriated him as a character\nin his best-known book. Similarly, SF/F fans will mostly know the names\nof Ahriman and Ahura-Mazda from John Brunner's THE TRAVELLER IN\nBLACK." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None of that ought to apply to this crowd." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The relevant quesiton is this: Is the dualism frequently associated with\nthe Daena Vanyuhi a product of human minds (as the Gathic tradition,\nto which avesta.org clearly subscribes, holds) or is it cosmic (as in the\nlater Avestic tradition)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Gathas are pretty old. No one really knows how old. \n\nOlder than the Rg-Veda, according to some people. Show a lot of the same\nhistorical tradition, too.\n\nJosh\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-05-08T20:40:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fwd: Latro and Ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria,\nI temporarily cannot post to the list. Taking a page from Blattid's book,\nwould you mind posting this for me?\n\n-- James Wynn\n\n------------------------------------------\nMarc pondered:\nThe evidence against Ares being Latro must certainly include Latro's early\nmemories of his childhood and his farmland. On the other hand, Nike always\nfollows Latro invisibly, and I'm pretty sure Ares is at least living inside\nLatro or possessing him (if he is not entirely homoousious with Latro).\nCould it be that the Great Mother is mad at her son? Anybody else think\nLatro is divine?\n\nAnd Nutria helps him along:\nAdd to your data his tryst with Venus/Aphrodite, lover of Mars/Ares. I\nbrought this up to Wolfe in my looong interview, mentioning that Venus was\nmarried to Vulcan and had adultery with Mars (plug in the Greek names as you\nwish). He acted confused, saying that he had thought Venus married to Mars,\nat least in some versions. I say, \"acted\" confused. It's hard to believe he\ndid not know this. Which made me wonder if perhaps \"more\" were not involved.\n\nCrush takes the other side:\nI've only checked what I consider to be the relevant chapters of the Soldier\nnovels to refresh my memory so I'm open to correction, however....\n\nI'd say that Latro is for a time filled with the spirit of Ares, but not\nthroughout the novels. I'll explain why:\n\n(1)\nI won't go into it here, but Wolfe **was** definitely aware of the of the\nstory of Aphrodite's tryst with Ares by the time he wrote Exodus of the Long\nSun. It would be remarkable, if Wolfe were unaware of this at the time he\nwrote the Soldier novels (considering his reliance on \"The Greeks Myths\"\ntherein), and it is hard to imagine why he would cover up his knowledge of\nit if he were. Nevertheless, Latro and Aphrodite's \"tryst\" (SoM:20) does\nnot **actually** involve the **act** per se. Also, there is an important\nelement of the story that does not play out in their time together: Ares and\nAphrodite were caught in a net by her husband (flagrante delicto) and forced\nto dangle in mid-air before all the other gods.\n\n(2)\nSecondly, I certainly don't believe Ares would have needed help from\nOdysseus and Heracles (as Latro received) to win fights.\n\n(3)\nAlso, if he were Ares, surely some god or ghost would have let on about it.\nThis is not proof on its own, yet even Artemis speaks of them as different\npersonalities. Cynthia/Artemis says (SoA:6) :\n\"Latro named me a queen. Soon you'll meet another--you may rely upon me for\nthat. She has a strong protector, and I intend to make use of him to flush a\nboar...\"\n\nIIRC, her \"protector\" was Ares -- as Marc pointed out, the Amazon's were\ndaughters of Ares.\n\nThere **is** a connection here between Ares and the themes in the rest of\nthe book, because Robert Graves (\"The Greek Myths\" 100:1) asserts that the\nname \"amazon\" does NOT come from a word meaning \"breastless\" but from an\nArmenian word meaning \"moon women\" -- so, as far as Graves is concerned,\nthey were priestesses of the trideitic Moon goddess who is the major player\nthe Soldier novels so far. Although I don't recall him saying so, I've no\ndoubt Graves would be perfectly happy with the belief that Ares is the\n\"Great Mother\" in another form. The Moon Goddess is in some kind of struggle\nwith Hera/Rhea/Demeter (who Graves also identifies as the \"White Goddess\"\nso it should not surprise us that their supposedly conflicting schemes run\nin strange collusion. Even King Kotys was, according to Graves', this same\nwondrous deity (look up Cotys in \"The White Goddess\".\n\n(4)\nFINALLY, Ares actually **does** make an appearance (SoA:9). Latro writes:\n \"...I told the black man and the rest about the rider I had seen, a big\nman with a lance on a big horse.\n \"'That will be an Apsinthian,' Hegesistratus said. 'He may even be a\nscout of their king's, though it's more likely he was just a petty\naristocrat out hunting. When we ford the river, we will be in their\ncountry.' ...I asked him then whether the Apisinthians hunted with lions as\nother men do with dogs, and he assured me that they do not. The beast that\nran beside the rider's horse seemed a lion to me, but I did not speak of it\nthen.\"\n\nI don't remember the reference that assured me that lions were a symbol of\nAres, but I was once so assured. Yet, it was certainly a lion and a god that\nLatro saw, based on his investigation later in the chapter:\n \"When we rode on, I looked for hoof marks where I had seen the rider,\nfor near them I hoped to discover the footprints of the animal that had\nbounded beside his horse as well, and from them to decide whether it had\nbeen a dog, as Hegisistratus had said, or a lion, as I had thought it...The\nhoofprints of the rider's steed were...invisible, though I discovered the\npug marks of a lion.\"\n\nSince Latro sees Ares from afar, I think it is safe to assume that he and\nLatro are not one in the same.\n\nYet in chapter 24-25 Latro DOES flush the supernatural boar from Thamyris's\nthrone room AND the Apsinthian's believe him to be Ares (and since this is a\nWolfe novel, their naive mistake is proof enough for me), so I think it is\nalso clear that at least during those chapters, he was **inspired** by Ares.\nI presume the inspiration first occurred when Latro saw the god in chapter\n9.\n\n--- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-05-08T20:50:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) latro and ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Zarathustra began his prophetic mission about the middle of the sixth \ncentury....\" Olmstead, HIstory of Persian Empire, p. 94. I.e., ca. 550BC. I \nthink this is pretty much the consensus these days.\n\nNutricious" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:59 PM 5/8/2003, you wrote:\nNutria wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Whatever Z. may be now, or may have been in the 1st century, the \nquestion is what it was in Latro's day. Given the friendliness of the \nPersian rulers to the Jews, it seems that ur-Zoroastrians may have \nthought they were worshipping the same God under different names. \nReading the works of Zarathustra, one wonders if he had not been \ninfluenced by diaspora Jews." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria, I would suggest that this is improbable on the face of things\n-- tradition holds that Zarathushtra lived ca. 1750 BC; this would place\nus well before the time of Moses, let alone the Diaspora. It is then\nmuch more likely that influence would have flowed in the other\ndirection, the quasi- or proto-monotheism of Zarathushtra helping to\nshape the monotheism of Abraham and Moses.\n\n--Blattid\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*\nhttp://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-05-08T21:12:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) latro and ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Zarathustra began his prophetic mission about the middle of the sixth \ncentury....\" Olmstead, HIstory of Persian Empire, p. 94. I.e., ca. 550BC. I \nthink this is pretty much the consensus these days." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not, at any rate, among Zoroastrians. H'mmm. A bit more research\nis called for here.\n\nOkay, here's one answer, from avesta.org:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "According to Bruce Lincoln,\n\"At present, the majority opinion among scholars probably inclines toward \nthe end of the second millennium or the beginning of the first, although \nthere are still those who hold for a date in the seventh century.\" (Death, \nWar, and Sacrifice, 1991, pg 150)\n\nHumbach and Ichaporia seem to favor the Xanthos date of 1080 BC but mention \nthe 630 date also. (Heritage, 1994, pg 11).\n\nA commonly given date is the seventh century B.C.E. I think Boyce has \nconvincingly shown the seventh century date to be an error. Humbach also \ndiscounts the basis of this calculation in his Gathas 1991 (pg 30). Boyce \nhas wavered on an actual date: between 1400 and 1000 BC (1975), between \n1700 and 1500 (1979), around 1400 BC (1988), between 1500 BC & 1200 BC \n\"with the latter more likely\" (1992)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From w-z-o.org:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "THE founder of Zoroastrianism, Zarathushtra, or Zoroaster as\nthe Greeks rendered the name, cannot be ascribed any\nprecise date and dating is a hotly contested issue. Academic\nopinion, which bases its case on linguistic analysis of the oldest\ntexts, suggests a date roughly around 1500 BCE. Other\nsuggestions, based on Greek sources, arrive at dates as far\napart as 6000 BCE and the sixth century BCE." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More detail from pyrecantha.com:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No one knows where or when the Prophet was born. Some legends place his \nbirth in western Iran, perhaps near Tehran; others, which are somewhat more \nlikely due to the eastern Iranian language of his poetry, place his \nbirthplace in the east. As for the date of his birth, it has been since \nancient times a matter of controversy. Greek sources placed him as early as \n6000 B.C., a reckoning derived from poorly transmitted Zoroastrian legends; \nfew if any scholars take that date seriously. The traditional Zoroastrian \ndate for Zarathushtra's birth and ministry is around 600 B.C. This is \nderived from a Greek source that places him \"300 years before Alexander\" \nwhich would give that date; other rationales for the 600 BC date identify \nthe King Vishtaspa of Zarathushtra's Gathas with the father of the Persian \nKing Darius, who lived around that time.\n\nAs the linguists of both Europe and India worked on the Gathas, however, it \nbecame clear that the language of the Gathas attributed to Zarathushtra was \nfar older than the language spoken in Iran at the time of King Darius' \nfather. Gathic Avestan was very close to the Sanskrit of the Indian \nRig-Vedas, which can be dated from the period 1500-1200 BC. This would mean \nthat Zarathushtra lived far earlier than the \"traditional\" date. Some \nscholars have said that the 600 BC date is still plausible if Gathic \nAvestan was actually an artificially preserved sacred language, somewhat \nlike Latin, which continued in literature and rituals thousands of years \nafter it had ceased to be spoken.\n\nRecent work by Martin Schwartz and Almut Hintze tends to discount this \ntheory, as the linguists show that the Gathas are not the work of an \nacademic writing in a dead language; they show all the signs of poetry \ncomposed and recited in an oral tradition, similar to the heroic poetry of \nHomer or the Rig-Vedas. These studies would confirm the earlier date for \nZarathushtra.\n\nThe problem of Zarathushtra's time will never be solved, unless some \nimprobable archaeological find turns up. Most scholars agree on a \ntime-frame for Zarathushtra which could be as early as 1700 B.C. or as late \nas 1000 B.C." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-05-08T22:22:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) latro and ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 2003-05-08 at 13:50, James Jordan wrote:\n\"Zarathustra began his prophetic mission about the middle of the sixth \ncentury....\" Olmstead, HIstory of Persian Empire, p. 94. I.e., ca. 550BC. I \nthink this is pretty much the consensus these days." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not, though. It used to be.\n\nPeople still argue about it fiercely, and an absolute date is hard to\ncome by, but linguistically the Gathas are from about the same era as\nthe Rg-Veda, if not slightly earlier. A date sometime in the 16th or\n17th century BC seems a lot more reasonable than 6th century.\n\n\nJosh" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-05-08T23:18:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) latro and ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I don't have a lot invested in this either way, though I lean toward \na later date for a number of reasons, which are moot here. The only real \nquestion is what Wolfe may be operating with; to wit, if he sees that \nZoroastrianism which was contemporaneous with Latro as something close \nenough to his Judeo-Christian notions that Ahuramazda can betoken the True \nGod (Yahweh, Outsider, Pancreator, etc.). And I have no idea what he thinks \non this.\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:22 PM 5/8/2003, you wrote:\nOn Thu, 2003-05-08 at 13:50, James Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Zarathustra began his prophetic mission about the middle of the sixth\ncentury....\" Olmstead, HIstory of Persian Empire, p. 94. I.e., ca. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "550BC. I\nthink this is pretty much the consensus these days.\n\nIt's not, though. It used to be.\n\nPeople still argue about it fiercely, and an absolute date is hard to\ncome by, but linguistically the Gathas are from about the same era as\nthe Rg-Veda, if not slightly earlier. A date sometime in the 16th or\n17th century BC seems a lot more reasonable than 6th century.\n\n\nJosh\n\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2003-05-09T04:15:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) latro and ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From:\n\"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Slight correction ... Ahura-Mazda (Ormuzd, other spellings) is not a \n\"singular\"\ngod but one-half of a dualistic pair; the other being, of course, \nAhriman, the\ngod of Evil. The prophecies of Zarathustra suggest that Ahura-Mazda will be\nvictorious in the final battle, but since everything else in the \nreligion posits\nthem as opposite equals, I've never quite understood how that's supposed\nto work out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are opposites in that Ahriman is as foolish as Ormuzd is wise, and \ntheir agreement to make war to decide rulership of the world was slanted \nto favor Ormuzd, but Ahriman accepted anyway." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - http://www.io.com/~jwilson\n\n\n-- " } ] } ] }