{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3985", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3985, "subject": "lions of Ares", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-05-09T05:01:08+00:00", "last": "2003-05-27T16:55:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2003-05-09T05:01:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) lions of Ares", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK - if you say that the lion was the symbol of Ares, can we explain the \nmemory house of Latro that he constructs in 28 of SoA: \"What are these \nstatues?\" \"Lions with the faces of men.\" At first, latro thinks that all the \nstatues are lions. then, he is corrected: the second statue is the sphinx, \nwho says, \"I am your mother, and your mother's mother.\" Well, the Sphinx is \nthe daughter of Hera. Ares is the son of Hera. If Latro is the daughter of \nthe Sphinx, and the Sphinx is somehow contiguous with Hera, then Latro's \nmother is Hera. Jeez. Ares mother is Hera.\n\nHowever, I am willing to accept that the man with the lance Latro runs into on \nthe way to his seige on Thamyris was Ares, VERY incognito, on the basis of \nthis lion stuff. Remember that the black man's name is Seven Lions, and the \nman with a lance was kind of blackish.\n\nAlso, the advice of Hercules to Latro is easily followed by him: Latro has all \nthe tools, he just doesn't know it because he has been stripped of his memory.\n Hercules tells him to lose, otherwise he would triumph easily. Most mortals, \nno matter how much knowledge they have, can't utilize fighting advice without \nthe body to pull it off. It's not Tyson's corner man that wins the fight - \nit's Tyson. give the same advice to, let's say, me, and I wouldn't be able to \nknock out a heavyweight champion. Latro lacks the memory of the warrior, but \nhe knows all the right things to do with the simplest promptings, which \nindicates that his experience is great indeed.\n\nThamyris says that Pleistorus (Ares) has been missing for a long time. Long \nenough to inhabit a mortal body and grow up, as the real God would later do in \nChrist? Why aren't Latro's symbols wolves instead of lions, since his name is \nLucius? Why does Thamyris say Ares is missing? Why does the rain start when \nKotys challenges Latro, thus betraying his god Ares?\n\nUnfortunately, lions are roaring all the time in the text. When Latro fights \nPasicrates on the shore, lions are showing up all over the place. Remember \nthat Ares sister is surrounded by lions when she commissions him to go get the \nhorses of the sun, but Ares is nowhere around there, unless he's latro.\n\nI don't think that one lion can clearly identify the black rider when latro is \nsuffused with lion companions. However, I maintain that there is a close \nrelationship between Latro and Ares, and that Nike certainly follows him \nwithout appearing to him.\n\nHere is the question: what clear evidence in the text is given that Polos is a \ncentaur? he gallops and trots everywhere, and when he disappears a red haired \nroan appears. He knows a lot about horses.\n\nLatro embodies arete, and at the beginning of Part three of SofA, Hegistratus \nand Cimmon and company swear to protect Latro before he goes off to the \nSpartan ceremony of manumission, for no apparent reason. It seems as if they \nare talking about how necessary Arete is for the survival of their cities, and \ntheir icon of arete has become Latro. Why? The name of Ares is in the word \nArete.\n\nVery good points - the man with the lance and the lion probably was Ares.\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mournings glory", "address": "mourningsglory at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-05-09T08:27:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) lions of Ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marcus having written:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK - if you say that the lion was the symbol of Ares, can we explain the\nmemory house of Latro that he constructs in 28 of SoA: \"What are these\nstatues?\" \"Lions with the faces of men.\" At first, latro thinks that all \nthe\nstatues are lions. then, he is corrected: the second statue is the sphinx,\nwho says, \"I am your mother, and your mother's mother.\" Well, the Sphinx \nis\nthe daughter of Hera. Ares is the son of Hera. If Latro is the daughter \nof\nthe Sphinx, and the Sphinx is somehow contiguous with Hera, then Latro's\nmother is Hera. Jeez. Ares mother is Hera." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm confused here. I always thought that the Sphinx was the daughter of \nEchidna, along with siblings Hydra, Cerberus, and the Nemean lion--all \nmonsters coincidentally enough encountered by Heracles. Thus my own theory \nabout Latro--that, as a Roman, he's a direct descendant of Heracles and that \nmany of his adventures are meant to recapitulate those of the great Semideid \nhimself. This, of course, requires you to accept the notion that Latinus was \nthe son of Heracles by King Faunus' widow or daughter (or a Hyperborean \nmaiden in still another tradition), and that Latinus' daughter, Lavinia, \nmarries Aeneas when he arrives after Troy is sacked. We are also given to \nunderstand that Latro hails from Latium--which has been named after Latinus. \nAnd look how many of the creatures Latro encounters are similar to those \nencountered by \"the Glory of Hera\": Drakaina--part Echidna, part hydra; \nvarious lions; a griffin (a Stymphalian bird prototype?); a stag; centaurs; \nAmazons; fabulous horses; a wild boar; a bull (or is that Severian?); plus \nthere's also his indenturement to Kalleos, which recalls that of Heracles to \nOmphale, and his descent into the underworld. Heracles was also supposed to \nmarry Iole; if little Io had her way Latro would be married to her. And is \nmy memory failing (it's been a while since I read the two books), but isn't \nAntaeus or someone like him encountered somewhere?\n\nFurthermore, Heracles is the son of a god and and a mortal who is \ntransmogrified at death so perhaps Wolfe is attempting to paint him as \nanother man+god avatar. (Indeed, will Latro be mistaken for/identified as \nQuetzacoatl if his adventures take him to pre-Columbian America?)\n\nPerhaps further correspondences will yet take place in the future Soldier \nbooks (and I'm sure there are some in the first two that I've forgotten or \noverlooked), but I for one am really looking forward to the resumption of \nthis series.\n\nmsg (a small dose)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-05-09T14:50:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) lions of Ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Lions, eh? Well, since we don't know where Wolfe is going in this \nseries, if he ever gets to go there, maybe it is worth pointing out that \nthe royal house of David are the Lions of Judah. You are wondering if Latro \nis like Severian, who is both Apollo and a post-Christ Christlike \nChristian. Maybe Latro is both Ares and a pre-Christ Davidlike \npre-Christian. (There has to be a better way to say that, but you get the \npoint, I'm sure.)\n You wrote:\n\n Remember that the black man's name is Seven Lions, and the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "man with a lance was kind of blackish." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The Emperor of Ethiopia is also the Lion of Judah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why aren't Latro's symbols wolves instead of lions, since his name is\nLucius?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Maybe that what the wolf is in Roman territory, the lion is in the \nparts farther east? Coordinate imagery? Or that Latro is Roman wolf in his \nmere humanity, and Ares/David(?) in his divinely-empowered humanity? When \nLucius is empowered by Virtue (arete) he is Latro? Lucius : Latro :: Jesus \n: Christ :: any Roman : Ares?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that one lion can clearly identify the black rider when \nlatro is\nsuffused with lion companions. However, I maintain that there is a close\nrelationship between Latro and Ares, and that Nike certainly follows him\nwithout appearing to him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Is the black rider the \"divine archetype\" of the black man?\n\nJust some grist for your mill. It's been a long time since I read these, so \nperhaps none of this is helpful!\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Barach", "address": "jbarach at telus.net" }, "date": "2003-05-27T16:55:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) lions of Ares", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here is the question: what clear evidence in the text\nis given that Polos is a centaur? he gallops and trots\neverywhere, and when he disappears a red haired\nroan appears. He knows a lot about horses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The goat-man calls him \"Kain-Tauros,\" and the \"him\" refers to what Latro saw\n(which he reports at the end of the chapter), namely, the bay colt he had\njust ridden, \"trotting through the trees, Polos to the waist\" (ch. 33, p.\n269 old edition). Furthermore, Polos himself tells Latro that he rode him\nto steal the horses of the sun and to kill the boar (ch. 38, p. 308).\n\nJohn Barach" } ] } ] }