# lions of Ares *The Urth list — 4 messages, 4 voices, 09 May 2003* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### maa32 *09 May 2003, 05:01* OK - if you say that the lion was the symbol of Ares, can we explain the memory house of Latro that he constructs in 28 of SoA: "What are these statues?" "Lions with the faces of men." At first, latro thinks that all the statues are lions. then, he is corrected: the second statue is the sphinx, who says, "I am your mother, and your mother's mother." Well, the Sphinx is the daughter of Hera. Ares is the son of Hera. If Latro is the daughter of the Sphinx, and the Sphinx is somehow contiguous with Hera, then Latro's mother is Hera. Jeez. Ares mother is Hera. However, I am willing to accept that the man with the lance Latro runs into on the way to his seige on Thamyris was Ares, VERY incognito, on the basis of this lion stuff. Remember that the black man's name is Seven Lions, and the man with a lance was kind of blackish. Also, the advice of Hercules to Latro is easily followed by him: Latro has all the tools, he just doesn't know it because he has been stripped of his memory. Hercules tells him to lose, otherwise he would triumph easily. Most mortals, no matter how much knowledge they have, can't utilize fighting advice without the body to pull it off. It's not Tyson's corner man that wins the fight - it's Tyson. give the same advice to, let's say, me, and I wouldn't be able to knock out a heavyweight champion. Latro lacks the memory of the warrior, but he knows all the right things to do with the simplest promptings, which indicates that his experience is great indeed. Thamyris says that Pleistorus (Ares) has been missing for a long time. Long enough to inhabit a mortal body and grow up, as the real God would later do in Christ? Why aren't Latro's symbols wolves instead of lions, since his name is Lucius? Why does Thamyris say Ares is missing? Why does the rain start when Kotys challenges Latro, thus betraying his god Ares? Unfortunately, lions are roaring all the time in the text. When Latro fights Pasicrates on the shore, lions are showing up all over the place. Remember that Ares sister is surrounded by lions when she commissions him to go get the horses of the sun, but Ares is nowhere around there, unless he's latro. I don't think that one lion can clearly identify the black rider when latro is suffused with lion companions. However, I maintain that there is a close relationship between Latro and Ares, and that Nike certainly follows him without appearing to him. Here is the question: what clear evidence in the text is given that Polos is a centaur? he gallops and trots everywhere, and when he disappears a red haired roan appears. He knows a lot about horses. Latro embodies arete, and at the beginning of Part three of SofA, Hegistratus and Cimmon and company swear to protect Latro before he goes off to the Spartan ceremony of manumission, for no apparent reason. It seems as if they are talking about how necessary Arete is for the survival of their cities, and their icon of arete has become Latro. Why? The name of Ares is in the word Arete. Very good points - the man with the lance and the lion probably was Ares. Marc Aramini --- ### mournings glory *09 May 2003, 08:27 · follows maa32* Marcus having written: > OK - if you say that the lion was the symbol of Ares, can we explain the > memory house of Latro that he constructs in 28 of SoA: "What are these > statues?" "Lions with the faces of men." At first, latro thinks that all > the > statues are lions. then, he is corrected: the second statue is the sphinx, > who says, "I am your mother, and your mother's mother." Well, the Sphinx > is > the daughter of Hera. Ares is the son of Hera. If Latro is the daughter > of > the Sphinx, and the Sphinx is somehow contiguous with Hera, then Latro's > mother is Hera. Jeez. Ares mother is Hera. I'm confused here. I always thought that the Sphinx was the daughter of Echidna, along with siblings Hydra, Cerberus, and the Nemean lion--all monsters coincidentally enough encountered by Heracles. Thus my own theory about Latro--that, as a Roman, he's a direct descendant of Heracles and that many of his adventures are meant to recapitulate those of the great Semideid himself. This, of course, requires you to accept the notion that Latinus was the son of Heracles by King Faunus' widow or daughter (or a Hyperborean maiden in still another tradition), and that Latinus' daughter, Lavinia, marries Aeneas when he arrives after Troy is sacked. We are also given to understand that Latro hails from Latium--which has been named after Latinus. And look how many of the creatures Latro encounters are similar to those encountered by "the Glory of Hera": Drakaina--part Echidna, part hydra; various lions; a griffin (a Stymphalian bird prototype?); a stag; centaurs; Amazons; fabulous horses; a wild boar; a bull (or is that Severian?); plus there's also his indenturement to Kalleos, which recalls that of Heracles to Omphale, and his descent into the underworld. Heracles was also supposed to marry Iole; if little Io had her way Latro would be married to her. And is my memory failing (it's been a while since I read the two books), but isn't Antaeus or someone like him encountered somewhere? Furthermore, Heracles is the son of a god and and a mortal who is transmogrified at death so perhaps Wolfe is attempting to paint him as another man+god avatar. (Indeed, will Latro be mistaken for/identified as Quetzacoatl if his adventures take him to pre-Columbian America?) Perhaps further correspondences will yet take place in the future Soldier books (and I'm sure there are some in the first two that I've forgotten or overlooked), but I for one am really looking forward to the resumption of this series. msg (a small dose) --- ### James Jordan *09 May 2003, 14:50 · follows mournings glory* Lions, eh? Well, since we don't know where Wolfe is going in this series, if he ever gets to go there, maybe it is worth pointing out that the royal house of David are the Lions of Judah. You are wondering if Latro is like Severian, who is both Apollo and a post-Christ Christlike Christian. Maybe Latro is both Ares and a pre-Christ Davidlike pre-Christian. (There has to be a better way to say that, but you get the point, I'm sure.) You wrote: Remember that the black man's name is Seven Lions, and the > man with a lance was kind of blackish. The Emperor of Ethiopia is also the Lion of Judah. > Why aren't Latro's symbols wolves instead of lions, since his name is > Lucius? Maybe that what the wolf is in Roman territory, the lion is in the parts farther east? Coordinate imagery? Or that Latro is Roman wolf in his mere humanity, and Ares/David(?) in his divinely-empowered humanity? When Lucius is empowered by Virtue (arete) he is Latro? Lucius : Latro :: Jesus : Christ :: any Roman : Ares? > I don't think that one lion can clearly identify the black rider when > latro is > suffused with lion companions. However, I maintain that there is a close > relationship between Latro and Ares, and that Nike certainly follows him > without appearing to him. Is the black rider the "divine archetype" of the black man? Just some grist for your mill. It's been a long time since I read these, so perhaps none of this is helpful! Nutria --- ### John Barach *27 May 2003, 16:55 · follows James Jordan* Marc writes: > Here is the question: what clear evidence in the text > is given that Polos is a centaur? he gallops and trots > everywhere, and when he disappears a red haired > roan appears. He knows a lot about horses. The goat-man calls him "Kain-Tauros," and the "him" refers to what Latro saw (which he reports at the end of the chapter), namely, the bay colt he had just ridden, "trotting through the trees, Polos to the waist" (ch. 33, p. 269 old edition). Furthermore, Polos himself tells Latro that he rode him to steal the horses of the sun and to kill the boar (ch. 38, p. 308). John Barach ---