{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3993",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 3993,
    "subject": "sphinx, lions, wolves, and Latro",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "2003-05-10T21:13:27+00:00",
    "last": "2003-05-10T21:13:27+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0305-3400@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "James Jordan",
        "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net"
      },
      "date": "2003-05-10T21:13:27+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Fwd: sphinx, lions, wolves, and Latro",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Reposted from Nutria, since Crush is still out of pocket:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Okay, I admit this is long, and for starters, let me say up front that I\ndon't claim to understand everything Wolfe is intending in the Soldier\nnovels. There is a (necessary) great deal of convolution and confabulation\nhere. Here's what I'm reasonably confident of:\n\n*    It would be difficult to overemphasize the shadow that Graves' \"The\nGreek Myths\" (TGM) and (to a lesser extent) \"The White Goddess\" (TWG) cast\nover these novels.\n\n*    Latro was one of Xerxe's \"Immortals\" -- **the** elite Persian fighting\nforce. During the war with the Greeks, the Persians violated Demeter's grove\nand it was believed by both sides that from that time She operated against\nthem.\n\n*    Demeter is the mother of Persephone/Core/The Maiden. When she curses\nhim, he becomes a conduit between the divine and the mundane -- if he\ntouches a god or spirit, they become as material to mortals -- if he touches\na mortal, become accessible to a god or spirit (see Latro's conversation\nwith the serpent woman for this).\n\n*    Marc, you are clearly aware of all this, but I wanted to spell out\ncertain details for the sake of my argument. According to Graves, Demeter,\nCybele, Rhea, Hera ***and the Theban Sphinx *** (TGM 82:6) are the Great\nMother who rules alternately in the sky, on earth and on the sea, and in the\ninfernal regions of the dead under the earth and sea. Her emblem is the Moon\nwhich is full, waxing/waning, and new.\n    Her colors are white, pink, and black/violet respectively (Eurykles\nexplains this to Latro in SotM). She is virginal, erotic/fruitful, and a\ncrone respectively. ( I have a planned essay showing that the life of\nEurykles also definitely follows this lunar cycle).\n    The lion is her symbol, but so is the wolf which howls at the moon and\nnursed Romulus and Remus. The wolf hunts at night and the lion is one of the\nfew cats known for hunting during the day. Persephone is called Demter's\ndaughter, but she is essentially the same person exemplifying her changing\nphases. It's an endless cycle in which  the Maiden ushers in the Crone and\nthe Crone the Maiden. I was not aware of the Sphinx's \"Day/Night\" riddle\nthat you mentioned, but it certainly fits and further explains why Wolfe\nchose to include the Sphinx in the first novel rather than the third.\n    Amazons are known as worshippers (and children) of the Thracian Ares but\nGraves says they were priestesses of the Moon -- so it is reasonable to\nconclude that (ah ha!) Wolfe is saying that Ares is really that same\ngoddess. I don't want to look like I'm self promoting, but for further\nevidence that Graves sees Ares this way, I refer you to my article on\nTrivigaunte at my site http://www.urth.org/whorlmap. For this reason alone,\nI find it unlikely that Latro is Ares or a son of Ares -- as I understand\nthe themes of the novels, it is difficult to shoe-horn in such a high degree\nof free-agency in a single god. Incidentally, Marc, since you have recently\nfinished SotM, you might be interested in my essay \"The Wolfe and the\nLaidely Worm\".\n\n\nNow for these statements:\nMarc said:\n\"Why aren't Latro's symbols wolves instead of lions, since his name is\nLucius?\"\n\nResponse:\nI think you are thinking of Lycaeus. Lucius means \"Light Bringer\". It is the\nname for the morning star and is synonymous with Lucifer. His name **is** a\nmajor support for your theory because Venus as the morning star is a symbol\nof warfare. But I think this spin is sufficiently covered in that Latro is\nan expert soldier.\n\nPrimarily, I think the significance of the name is that it comes from the\nsame root as the word \"lucid\". Due to his curse, Latro is the opposite of\nlucid, yet his curse has also granted him uncanny lucidity.\n\nBuuuut, Latro's surrounded by wolves as well as lions. I don't understand\nit, but IIRC he **is** accused of being a \"Neurian\" by the ghost of a man he\nand another Neurian kill. IIRC, the Neurian says that their changing in to\nwolves is a curse of “Cybele” and the Apollo refers to Latro's curse as a\nwolf's tooth.\n\nMarc said:\n* \"The advice of Hercules to Latro is easily followed by him: Latro has all\nthe tools, he just doesn't know it because he has been stripped of his\nmemory.\"\n\nResponse:\nLatro doesn't know what he knows but when he is put to it, he can access any\ntechnical knowledge he needs without help. He can speak any of the languages\nhe has learned if he happens to be speaking to (or pretending to speak to)\nanother speaker of that language. He can access his knowledge of tactics and\nwar engineering while on a battle field.\nHe can discuss Zoroastrian theology when he is queried about \"what a Magi\nwould say\". He even seems to know that he is not a Zoroastrian. Is there a\nreason Ares would study Zoroastrianism? I think it is reasonable to assume\nthat any advice he needs from Hercules, is knowlege he didn't have before\nhis curse.\n    Latro's only divine act is one that is not shared by any other god\nincluding Demeter whose curse seems to have blessed him with it -- to make\nthe divine real. I can't imagine why that should be a special propensity of\nAres'.\nInstead of Latro working miracles that show him to be divine Ares, the gods\nwork for Latro -- treating him alternately as a court favorite or a\nchampion.\n\nMarc said:\n* \"I maintain that there is a close relationship between Latro and Ares, and\nthat Nike certainly follows him without appearing to him.\"\nAND\n\"Hegistratus and Cimmon and company swear to protect Latro before he goes\noff to the Spartan ceremony of manumission, for no apparent reason.  It\nseems as if they are talking about how necessary Arete is for the survival\nof their cities, and their icon of arete has become Latro.  Why?  The name\nof Ares is in the word Arete.\"\n\nResponse:\n    Graves says that the Athenians weren't fond of Ares. He also says none\nof the other gods were fond of him either -- except for Eris and Hades. This\nis certainly not true of Ares.\n    I don't see how Nike standing behind him means he is Ares or anyone in\nparticular. If it were Eris, that would be another thing. Nike (the\npersonification of Victory) is at least as often invoked in athletics as\nwarfare. Perhaps her favor is why the gods back Latro.\n    If Arete equals Ares then Latro is a **soldier** of Ares, not Ares\nhimself.\n\nMarc said:\n\"When Latro fights Pasicrates on the shore, lions are showing up all over\nthe place.\"\n\nResponse:\n    The roaring lions during Latro's fight with Pasicrates I took to mean\nthat Leonides (note the name) and his soldiers were supporting/rooting for\nLatro (remember they were at their shrine). Possibly because Latro (as\nPasicrates' slave) refused to submit in battle just as they did before\nXerxes.\n\nConclusion:\n    Marc, I think you have put your finger on the fact that Latro\nconsistently has more in common with Heracles than with Ares -- Heracles\n**who was draped in a lion's skin** and was cursed with madness so that he\ndid not recognize his children. He's clearly not Heracles himself, yet he's\na Heracles-type (whose name supposedly means \"the glory of Hera -- ironic,\nisn't it?). I like this idea the more I think about it. I bet one could map\nHeracles over Latro rather nicely. I like this idea much better than\nassociating him with Achilles.\n\nWolfe offers two competing images of the gods in the Soldier novels. One of\nservants of a dealing with petitioners to a Great King (I think it is\nsignificant that Wolfe's image is that of a king and not a queen). The other\nis of an actor who puts on masks to become different characters.\n\nI believe Wolfe is going beyond Graves, to say that the White Goddess and\nany other god as well are servants of the true god, and in another sense the\ngod Himself. Note that he uses this imagery again in \"The Long Sun\" where\nthe gods are all interfaces of the Mainframe (which causes me to speculate\non the purpose of the Echidna coalition in preventing the colonists from\ndisembarking).\n\n-- Crush"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}