sphinx, lions, wolves, and Latro
The Urth list — 1 messages, 1 voices, 10 May 2003
https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3993

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James Jordan — 10 May 2003, 21:13

Reposted from Nutria, since Crush is still out of pocket:

> Okay, I admit this is long, and for starters, let me say up front that I
> don't claim to understand everything Wolfe is intending in the Soldier
> novels. There is a (necessary) great deal of convolution and confabulation
> here. Here's what I'm reasonably confident of:
> 
> *    It would be difficult to overemphasize the shadow that Graves' "The
> Greek Myths" (TGM) and (to a lesser extent) "The White Goddess" (TWG) cast
> over these novels.
> 
> *    Latro was one of Xerxe's "Immortals" -- **the** elite Persian fighting
> force. During the war with the Greeks, the Persians violated Demeter's grove
> and it was believed by both sides that from that time She operated against
> them.
> 
> *    Demeter is the mother of Persephone/Core/The Maiden. When she curses
> him, he becomes a conduit between the divine and the mundane -- if he
> touches a god or spirit, they become as material to mortals -- if he touches
> a mortal, become accessible to a god or spirit (see Latro's conversation
> with the serpent woman for this).
> 
> *    Marc, you are clearly aware of all this, but I wanted to spell out
> certain details for the sake of my argument. According to Graves, Demeter,
> Cybele, Rhea, Hera ***and the Theban Sphinx *** (TGM 82:6) are the Great
> Mother who rules alternately in the sky, on earth and on the sea, and in the
> infernal regions of the dead under the earth and sea. Her emblem is the Moon
> which is full, waxing/waning, and new.
>     Her colors are white, pink, and black/violet respectively (Eurykles
> explains this to Latro in SotM). She is virginal, erotic/fruitful, and a
> crone respectively. ( I have a planned essay showing that the life of
> Eurykles also definitely follows this lunar cycle).
>     The lion is her symbol, but so is the wolf which howls at the moon and
> nursed Romulus and Remus. The wolf hunts at night and the lion is one of the
> few cats known for hunting during the day. Persephone is called Demter's
> daughter, but she is essentially the same person exemplifying her changing
> phases. It's an endless cycle in which  the Maiden ushers in the Crone and
> the Crone the Maiden. I was not aware of the Sphinx's "Day/Night" riddle
> that you mentioned, but it certainly fits and further explains why Wolfe
> chose to include the Sphinx in the first novel rather than the third.
>     Amazons are known as worshippers (and children) of the Thracian Ares but
> Graves says they were priestesses of the Moon -- so it is reasonable to
> conclude that (ah ha!) Wolfe is saying that Ares is really that same
> goddess. I don't want to look like I'm self promoting, but for further
> evidence that Graves sees Ares this way, I refer you to my article on
> Trivigaunte at my site http://www.urth.org/whorlmap. For this reason alone,
> I find it unlikely that Latro is Ares or a son of Ares -- as I understand
> the themes of the novels, it is difficult to shoe-horn in such a high degree
> of free-agency in a single god. Incidentally, Marc, since you have recently
> finished SotM, you might be interested in my essay "The Wolfe and the
> Laidely Worm".
> 
> 
> Now for these statements:
> Marc said:
> "Why aren't Latro's symbols wolves instead of lions, since his name is
> Lucius?"
> 
> Response:
> I think you are thinking of Lycaeus. Lucius means "Light Bringer". It is the
> name for the morning star and is synonymous with Lucifer. His name **is** a
> major support for your theory because Venus as the morning star is a symbol
> of warfare. But I think this spin is sufficiently covered in that Latro is
> an expert soldier.
> 
> Primarily, I think the significance of the name is that it comes from the
> same root as the word "lucid". Due to his curse, Latro is the opposite of
> lucid, yet his curse has also granted him uncanny lucidity.
> 
> Buuuut, Latro's surrounded by wolves as well as lions. I don't understand
> it, but IIRC he **is** accused of being a "Neurian" by the ghost of a man he
> and another Neurian kill. IIRC, the Neurian says that their changing in to
> wolves is a curse of “Cybele” and the Apollo refers to Latro's curse as a
> wolf's tooth.
> 
> Marc said:
> * "The advice of Hercules to Latro is easily followed by him: Latro has all
> the tools, he just doesn't know it because he has been stripped of his
> memory."
> 
> Response:
> Latro doesn't know what he knows but when he is put to it, he can access any
> technical knowledge he needs without help. He can speak any of the languages
> he has learned if he happens to be speaking to (or pretending to speak to)
> another speaker of that language. He can access his knowledge of tactics and
> war engineering while on a battle field.
> He can discuss Zoroastrian theology when he is queried about "what a Magi
> would say". He even seems to know that he is not a Zoroastrian. Is there a
> reason Ares would study Zoroastrianism? I think it is reasonable to assume
> that any advice he needs from Hercules, is knowlege he didn't have before
> his curse.
>     Latro's only divine act is one that is not shared by any other god
> including Demeter whose curse seems to have blessed him with it -- to make
> the divine real. I can't imagine why that should be a special propensity of
> Ares'.
> Instead of Latro working miracles that show him to be divine Ares, the gods
> work for Latro -- treating him alternately as a court favorite or a
> champion.
> 
> Marc said:
> * "I maintain that there is a close relationship between Latro and Ares, and
> that Nike certainly follows him without appearing to him."
> AND
> "Hegistratus and Cimmon and company swear to protect Latro before he goes
> off to the Spartan ceremony of manumission, for no apparent reason.  It
> seems as if they are talking about how necessary Arete is for the survival
> of their cities, and their icon of arete has become Latro.  Why?  The name
> of Ares is in the word Arete."
> 
> Response:
>     Graves says that the Athenians weren't fond of Ares. He also says none
> of the other gods were fond of him either -- except for Eris and Hades. This
> is certainly not true of Ares.
>     I don't see how Nike standing behind him means he is Ares or anyone in
> particular. If it were Eris, that would be another thing. Nike (the
> personification of Victory) is at least as often invoked in athletics as
> warfare. Perhaps her favor is why the gods back Latro.
>     If Arete equals Ares then Latro is a **soldier** of Ares, not Ares
> himself.
> 
> Marc said:
> "When Latro fights Pasicrates on the shore, lions are showing up all over
> the place."
> 
> Response:
>     The roaring lions during Latro's fight with Pasicrates I took to mean
> that Leonides (note the name) and his soldiers were supporting/rooting for
> Latro (remember they were at their shrine). Possibly because Latro (as
> Pasicrates' slave) refused to submit in battle just as they did before
> Xerxes.
> 
> Conclusion:
>     Marc, I think you have put your finger on the fact that Latro
> consistently has more in common with Heracles than with Ares -- Heracles
> **who was draped in a lion's skin** and was cursed with madness so that he
> did not recognize his children. He's clearly not Heracles himself, yet he's
> a Heracles-type (whose name supposedly means "the glory of Hera -- ironic,
> isn't it?). I like this idea the more I think about it. I bet one could map
> Heracles over Latro rather nicely. I like this idea much better than
> associating him with Achilles.
> 
> Wolfe offers two competing images of the gods in the Soldier novels. One of
> servants of a dealing with petitioners to a Great King (I think it is
> significant that Wolfe's image is that of a king and not a queen). The other
> is of an actor who puts on masks to become different characters.
> 
> I believe Wolfe is going beyond Graves, to say that the White Goddess and
> any other god as well are servants of the true god, and in another sense the
> god Himself. Note that he uses this imagery again in "The Long Sun" where
> the gods are all interfaces of the Mainframe (which causes me to speculate
> on the purpose of the Echidna coalition in preventing the colonists from
> disembarking).
> 
> -- Crush

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