{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4011", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4011, "subject": "Ares & Aphrodite & Other Latro Stuff", "messages": 5, "voices": 2, "first": "2003-05-27T16:50:56+00:00", "last": "2003-05-27T23:09:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Barach", "address": "jbarach at telus.net" }, "date": "2003-05-27T16:50:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ares & Aphrodite & Other Latro Stuff", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Earlier this month, Nutria wrote:\n Add to your data his tryst with Venus/Aphrodite,\nlover of Mars/Ares. I brought this up to Wolfe in my\nlooong interview, mentioning that Venus was married\nto Vulcan and had adultery with Mars (plug in the Greek\nnames as you wish). He acted confused, saying that he\nhad thought Venus married to Mars, at least in some\nversions. I say, \"acted\" confused. It's hard to believe he\ndid not know this. Which made me wonder if perhaps\n\"more\" were not involved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just finished reading _Soldier of Arete_ (for the first time) last night,\nand came across this passage on p. 344 of the old edition (toward the end of\nchapter 42):\n\n Polos came to watch me exercise the horses. As\n Diokles and I rubbed them down, he asked me to\n explain *arete*. \"I know Ares is the war god here,\"\n he said, \"like Pleistorus. But this isn't war. How\n can anybody say that the man who runs fastest shows\n his *arete*?\"\n\n \"It isn't the man who runs best who runs from the enemy,\"\n I told him, \"and sometimes you want your men to run.\n When they do, you'd like to see them escape so they\n can fight again, on better terms or from a better\n position.\"\n\n Diokles spat. \"War isn't all blood and death, lad. And\n it isn't always the biggest army that wins. Pretty often\n it's the one that drills the best, and keeps its armor\n clean, and stands up best to long marches on short\n rations. Old Ares isn't some kind of monster, see?\n Think of him as a plain man that wants to win the war\n and get back home to Aphrodite. He's for training,\n discipline, and fair play with the men. And he whistles\n when he loses just like he whistles when he wins.\"\n\nDoes this passage support the idea Wolfe (claims he) has that Ares and\nAphrodite were husband and wife? Diokles could simply be saying that Ares\nwants to get back to his mistress, but the comparison with a \"plain man\"\nsuggests a husband trying to get back to his wife.\n\nOf course, Latro doesn't have a wife -- or doesn't know if he does -- to get\nback to. But like Ares or a soldier, he just wants to get back home. The\nreference to running fits here, too, because Latro does run at the end of\nthe book. But is he simply running away with the Crimson Men? Or, as he\nsays to Polos, is he running away (perhaps without realizing it) to \"fight\nagain, on better terms or from a better position\"?\n\nA couple of questions about SoA:\n\n1. What ever happened to (the ghost of) Artembares? He follows Latro much\nof the way to Rope, and then disappears. Was he exorcised by Sisyphus,\nalong with the ghostly soldiers of Riverland (ch. 32, p. 256)?\n\nI note, by the way, that another clue that Polos is a centaur may be the way\nhis eyes roll everytime Latro talks to the ghost of Artembares -- like a\nspooked horse, no?\n\n2. Who is the woman (goddess) who waves at Latro and Io from the marble\nbenches at the end of chapter 42 (p. 345)? My best guess right now is that\nit's Elata.\n\n3. Why does Latro have blood on his fingers after seeing the armor of King\nLeonidas (ch. 36, pp. 290, 291)?\n\n4. Perhaps my biggest question: What exactly happens at the end of the\nmanumission ceremony (ch.37)?\n\nLatro is bumped by a wiry little slave (p. 296) -- perhaps (I venture a\nguess) Queen Gorgo's charioteer, not, as Latro thinks \"to assure himself, as\nwell as me, that this was no dream,\" but to check to see if Latro is armed\n(Latro later bumps into the wiry slave's sponsor and discovers thereby that\nhe is armed). It seems to me that the two nudges invite us to read them\ntogether. If the wiry slave is the charioteer, then he may be planning to\nkill Latro for having beaten him in the chariot race.\n\n(If it be obejcted that Latro would have recognized the charioteer, well,\nit's dark and Latro doesn't in fact recognize the man who dies later as the\ncharioteer until he gets him into the light. The charioteer is \"short but\nmuscular,\" and the guy nudging Latro is \"a wiry little rogue from what I\ncould see of him\")\n\nThe prince gives Themistocles a silver chariot (p. 297), which Latro\nrecognizes -- presumably as the silver chariot (without horses) he was in\nback in pp. 129-130. What is the significance of Cybele's chariot?\n\nPausanius twice tells Hippoxleas not to let anything evil happen to Latro,\nand Queen Gorgo's eyes are full of tears. Latro hears the baying of hounds\n(not for the first time). Suddenly the charioteer who lost to Latro comes\nrunning past, drenched with blood and holding a knife. Hippoxleas tries to\nstop him, gets stabbed, and *snatches away Latro's crown of flowers*. A\ndozen people strike down the charioteer. Latro loses sight of his party and\nsearches for them, finally coming back to the same place where he stumbles\nover the charioteer, recognizes him, and tries to help him.\n\nWhy is the charioteer drenched with blood earlier? Presumably because he's\nalready stabbed someone and/or been stabbed. Is it that he is to be killed\nbecause he lost the race to Latro (making the queen lose to the prince)?\nThe Rope Maker sponsor of the \"wiry little slave\" is armed, perhaps in order\nto kill that slave (the charioteer) himself. But somehow the charioteer\ngets a priestess's knife, escapes from the guard, kills Hippoxleas, and then\nis struck down ... but Latro attemps to save him but fails.\n\nSo Latro's grief (\"man is a wolf to man\") may then include the realization\nthat simply by winning the race he ensured this man's death. He's being\nused, then, as a pawn in someone's game, which is why he later determines to\nget away on his own, leaving behind all his friends (even Io) ... to fight\nagain and better?\n\nThinking out loud,\n\nJohn\n\n\n%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%\nJohn Barach\nhttp://www.ontoblogical.com/katajohn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-05-27T17:42:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Ares & Aphrodite & Other Latro Stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Why does Latro have blood on his fingers after seeing the armor of King\nLeonidas (ch. 36, pp. 290, 291)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's implied (I think) that Latro slew Leonidas at Thermopylae. The blood is \nLeonidas', and if I recall correctly Latro feels guilt, and tries to hide \nthe blood (which no one else would probably be able to see anyway); also, he \ntries to rationalize just how he knows so much about the way Leonidas died. \nHe gives a fairly rational explanation, but it's clear that this is not the \nreal reason he knew what happened." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. Perhaps my biggest question: What exactly happens at the end of the\nmanumission ceremony (ch.37)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This was extremely confusing to me as well. This is a historical event, \nthough I have not actually seen where it's recorded originally - I know \nThucydides talks about it, though. The ceremony is one in which a large \nnumber of Spartan slaves are being freed, for serving in the war. However, \nthe Spartans had something up their sleeve. After the ceremony, the Spartans \nslaughtered the now-free slaves, on the pretext that slaves are prohibited \nby law from bearing arms (which they of course were forced to do during the \nwar). If I had to guess, the purpose of the whole scheme was to get them all \nin the same place and unawares, and also to make an example to the other \nslaves.\n\nLatro isn't very clear in his account of what goes on, but the reason he was \nin danger was that he was freed during this same ceremony. His \nsponsor/bodyguard tears the crown off his head because this crown identifies \nhim as someone who took part in the ceremony, and thus a target to be killed \n(and Pausanius apparently did *not* want Latro killed along with the rest).\n\nHope that helps,\nChris" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Barach", "address": "jbarach at telus.net" }, "date": "2003-05-27T18:06:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Ares & Aphrodite & Other Latro Stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Earlier today, I wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. Perhaps my biggest question: What exactly happens\nat the end of the manumission ceremony (ch.37)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... and a lot of other stuff.\n\nThen I read Jim's interview with Wolfe and things became a bit clearer. The\nSpartans had armed the Helots for battle against the Persians, and then\npromised to reward their leaders with freedom. Wolfe says,\n\n Then they held a ceremony which I described in detail,\n exactly as it was and they gave each Helot who was to\n be awarded his freedom as a climax of the ceremony a\n young Spartan as his companion to lead him through the\n ceremony. And at a given signal each companion killed\n that Helot that he was responsible for. And they were all\n killed except Latros who they did not intend to kill because\n he was not really a Helot. And he survived and all of the\n rest of them who had gone in the ceremony were butchered.\n And they really were, this took place.\n\nSo my initial theory was wrong, namely, that the charioteer was being killed\nbecause he lost to Latro. Or ... was it? Was the charioteer one of the\nHelots who fought against the Persians? Or are there other reasons he's\nthere among the people being killed?\n\nJohn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Barach", "address": "jbarach at telus.net" }, "date": "2003-05-27T18:28:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Ares & Aphrodite & Other Latro Stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the reply, Chris. I think you're right re. the blood on the hand\n(Latro killed Leonidas) and the manumission ceremony. That Latro's sponsor\nwas keeping him safe by tearing off the crown hadn't occurred to me!\n\nI glanced at Herodotus's Histories this afternoon, and noted to me surprise\nand delight that it ends where Soldier of the Mist ends and Solder of Arete\nbegins, namely, with the Greek siege of Sestus (9.114-115), Oeobazus and the\nbridge cables (9.115), the attempted escape of Artayctes and Oeobazus\n(9.118), the Thracian sacrifice of Oeobazus to Pleistorus (9.119), the\nmiracle of the wriggling salt fish on the fire and the interpretation\nArtayces gave (9.120), and the crucifixion of Artayctes and stoning of his\nson (9.120).\n\nWhat other sources is Wolfe drawing on here for his history? He dedicates\nMist to Herodotus and Arete to Xenophon (who discusses a much later\ncampaign).\n\nJohn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Barach", "address": "jbarach at telus.net" }, "date": "2003-05-27T23:09:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Ares & Aphrodite & Other Latro Stuff", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What other sources is Wolfe drawing on here for\nhis history?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sparta's manumission and slaughter of the helots is recounted in Thucydides'\nPeloponnesian War 4.80.\n\nJohn Barach" } ] } ] }