{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4024", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4024, "subject": "Latro and the Persian army", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-06-13T17:50:07+00:00", "last": "2003-06-16T00:21:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-06-13T17:50:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro and the Persian army", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've finally finished reading Herodotus this week, which was rewarding in \nand of itself, but somehow I couldn't help but keep my eye out for things \nconcerning those historical characters which also appeared in Latro's story. \nAnd while this hasn't exactly inspired me to construct any bizarre theories \nabout the story, there was one thing that struck me as curious that I \nwondered if anyone had an \"obvious\" explanation for.\n\nEssentially, the assumption I made from the story is that Latro's injury and \nhis offense to Demeter occurred during the battle of Plataea. Having read \nHerodotus' vague description of the action there, however, he provides some \nspecifics that make this difficult to reconcile. The Greek army had split \ninto two divisions, according to his account - the Spartans, who were \nengaged near the shrine of Demeter, and the Athenians who were some distance \naway. The Persian army also split, and it's stated that native Persians led \nby Mardonius pursued the Spartans, while the foreign contingent coming along \nafter fought the Athenians & co. This implies that for Latro to have been \nfighting near the shrine of Demeter during the battle of Plataea, he must \nhave been in the Persian contingent; not only that, he would have to have \nbeen in the leading elements among the Immortals and Mardonius' hand-picked \nbodyguard, since the rout began before the full Persian contingent was able \nto engage.\n\nIt's not impossible to resolve this, but it does seem to make a difference \nhow you choose to explain it.\n\nOne of the first things that occurred to me was that Latro may have acquired \nhis curse at a different shrine of Demeter - the Persians had sacked the one \nat Eleusis earlier, whereas at Plataea the shrine remained supposedly \nuntouched. If this were the case then Latro may have lost his memory quite \nsome time before the battle of Plataea where he received his head injury \n(which would then be incidental and misleading).\n\nAnother possibility is that Latro may really have been close to Mardonius. \nIt doesn't seem unreasonable that he would be accorded some honor if he \nreally was the one to kill Leonidas. And Latro's vague memory places him \nsomewhere not too far away from Xerxes during the battle of Thermopylae, so \nperhaps he had a position of honor even back then. That, however, makes him \na prominent enough figure that it seems unusual that no one thought to \nmention him in the various histories.\n\nAny thoughts?\n\nChris" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Indeed it is hard to grasp why it hasn't already given birth... to its \nhero, that demon who will stage without scruple that horrifying play that \nreduces the whole age to laughter and to unconsciousness of the fact that it \nis laughing at itself.\" -- Soren Kierkegaard" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "A. Bin Talal", "address": "aqala at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-06-14T18:06:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Latro and the Persian army", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Essentially, the assumption I made from the story is\nthat Latro's injury and \nhis offense to Demeter occurred during the battle of\nPlataea. Having read \nHerodotus' vague description of the action there,\nhowever, he provides some \nspecifics that make this difficult to reconcile. The\nGreek army had split \ninto two divisions, according to his account - the\nSpartans, who were \nengaged near the shrine of Demeter, and the\nAthenians who were some distance \naway. The Persian army also split, and it's stated\nthat native Persians led \nby Mardonius pursued the Spartans, while the foreign\ncontingent coming along \nafter fought the Athenians & co. This implies that\nfor Latro to have been \nfighting near the shrine of Demeter during the\nbattle of Plataea, he must \nhave been in the Persian contingent; not only that,\nhe would have to have \nbeen in the leading elements among the Immortals and\nMardonius' hand-picked \nbodyguard, since the rout began before the full\nPersian contingent was able \nto engage.\n\nIt's not impossible to resolve this, but it does\nseem to make a difference \nhow you choose to explain it.\n\nOne of the first things that occurred to me was that\nLatro may have acquired \nhis curse at a different shrine of Demeter - the\nPersians had sacked the one \nat Eleusis earlier, whereas at Plataea the shrine\nremained supposedly \nuntouched. If this were the case then Latro may have\nlost his memory quite \nsome time before the battle of Plataea where he\nreceived his head injury \n(which would then be incidental and misleading)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are saying then that he was cursed by Demeter to\nforget before the battle and then took part in the\nbattle, fighting the Athenians, and got a head injury!\nit's a nice theory but I don't see any hints in the\ntext of 'Latro' to this conclusion. Any way he seemed\nalmost invincible for the rest of the book having Nike\nfollowing him everywhere like a newly married wife\nfollowing her husband." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another possibility is that Latro may really have\nbeen close to Mardonius. \nIt doesn't seem unreasonable that he would be\naccorded some honor if he \nreally was the one to kill Leonidas. And Latro's\nvague memory places him \nsomewhere not too far away from Xerxes during the\nbattle of Thermopylae, so \nperhaps he had a position of honor even back then.\nThat, however, makes him \na prominent enough figure that it seems unusual that\nno one thought to \nmention him in the various histories.\n\nAny thoughts?\n\nChris" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well in the History there was no mention of a Roman or\neven a Latin contingent in the Persian army, let alone\na single Roman man. IMHO I think that Latro\nforeshadows the rise of the Roman republic which was\ncreated around the time of the Persian war. Nike\nfollowed them everywhere around the Hellenic world;\njust like Latro. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "The Wynns", "address": "the.wynns at usa.net" }, "date": "2003-06-16T00:21:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Latro and the Persian army", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris postulates:\n...for Latro to have been fighting near the shrine of Demeter during the\nbattle of Plataea, he must have been in the Persian contingent; not only\nthat, he would have to have been in the leading elements among the Immortals\nand Mardonius' hand-picked bodyguard, since the rout began before the full\nPersian contingent was able to engage...Another possibility is that Latro\nmay really have been close to Mardonius. It doesn't seem unreasonable that\nhe would be accorded some honor if he really was the one to kill Leonidas.\nAnd Latro's vague memory places him somewhere not too far away from Xerxes\nduring the battle of Thermopylae, so perhaps he had a position of honor even\nback then. That, however, makes him a prominent enough figure that it seems\nunusual that no one thought to mention him in the various histories.\n\nCrush responds:\nYou have solved the puzzle yourself. Latro was an Immortal -- probably an\nofficer among them on a tactical level. He could be merely an officer in the\nPersian military, but it is unlikely that a foreigner would be permitted\nsuch a distinction. Foreigners were, however, preferred among bodyguard\nunits as they considered less corruptible (Wolfe himself states in the\nintroduction) -- consider Rome's Praetorian Guard. How this particular Latin\nwon a place with the Immortals is not explained, but Latro's knowledge of\nZoroastrianism strongly suggests he spent some significant time in Persia\n(as opposed to being mustered in Egypt which the text suggests he went to\nfirst). I don't believe any of the Immortals were mentioned in Herodotus by\nname.\n\nThe quote from Herodotus at the beginning of SotM is from the battle of\nPlataea when Mardonius was killed. I would think this is where the story\nbegins.\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-06-16T00:08:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Latro and the Persian army", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush responds:\nYou have solved the puzzle yourself. Latro was an Immortal -- probably an\nofficer among them on a tactical level. He could be merely an officer in\nthe\nPersian military, but it is unlikely that a foreigner would be permitted\nsuch a distinction. Foreigners were, however, preferred among bodyguard\nunits as they considered less corruptible (Wolfe himself states in the\nintroduction) -- consider Rome's Praetorian Guard. How this particular\nLatin\nwon a place with the Immortals is not explained, but Latro's knowledge of\nZoroastrianism strongly suggests he spent some significant time in Persia\n(as opposed to being mustered in Egypt which the text suggests he went to\nfirst). I don't believe any of the Immortals were mentioned in Herodotus\nby\nname." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't this get kind of explained in Latro's vision at Thermopylae? I don't\nhave time to search out the quote, but as I recall, we learn from this that\nLatro is captain of a group of Romans, which has been given a position of\nhonor near the King, in the absence for whatever reason of the Immortals.\nThey front the desperate charge by Leonidas' band; I think we can probably\ninfer that Latro personally slays Leonidas.\n\nIt's not a stretch to imagine Mardonius granting the Romans an\nImmortals-like position on the field at Plataea, given this." } ] } ] }