{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4025", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4025, "subject": "Archaic Rome in Soldier", "messages": 7, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-06-16T01:30:58+00:00", "last": "2003-06-17T01:48:01+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-06-16T01:30:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Archaic Rome in Soldier", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How anachronistic are the glimpses we get? Eg: at the very start of Mist, Latro says that he would have though the commander of a warship would be a \"horseman\". Presumably by this he means somebody of equestrian rank, rather than a low-status money-grubbing merchant. This seems like an accurate portrayal of Roman attitudes during later times, but what do we know of such distinctions from the archaic period? I guess I need to go back to Livy or something.\n\nAlso, I have doubts about the picture of Athens presented in the same little passage. Did merchants really have high status in classical Athens? I have a mental picture of a society where the honorable path to wealth was through land, and booty taken in wars, and where on the nitty-gritty side of things the silver mines were a far more important part of the \"GDP\" and the war economy, than anything to do with trade & merchandise. Maybe I'm wrong, but the Hypereides character doesn't feel right." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-06-16T03:14:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Archaic Rome in Soldier", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 2003-06-15 at 18:30, Andrew Bollen wrote:\n... I have doubts about the picture of Athens presented in the same \nlittle passage. Did merchants really have high status in classical\nAthens? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would depend who you were talking to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a mental picture of a society where the honorable path to\nwealth was through land, and booty taken in wars, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was an country party and a city party. Peasants and aristocrats\non the one hand, businessmen and urban laborers on the other. You are\ndescribing the attitude of the country party." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and where on the nitty-gritty side of things the silver mines were a \nfar more important part of the \"GDP\" and the war economy, than \nanything to do with trade & merchandise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Trade was very important. All of those Greek vases that we find, all \nover the Mediterranean, those were largely packaging for olive oil or\nwine or whatever. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe I'm wrong, but the Hypereides character doesn't feel right." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seems fine to me.\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-06-16T03:23:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Archaic Rome in Soldier", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Josh wrote:\n\nTrade was very important. All of those Greek vases that we find, all\nover the Mediterranean, those were largely packaging for olive oil or\nwine or whatever." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess I'm influenced by Finley, esp. passages like Chap 5 of \"The Ancient\nEconomy\". His position, of course, is that large-scale trade in the ancient\nworld was very rare. He can find only two significant sources of \"trade\"\nrelated income for Athens from the 4th Century on - silver and tourism. Fine\npottery is the only significant manufactured export he can find evidence for\n(which apparently died out in the 4th cent). With few exceptions, he\nbelieves that manufacture in the local world was for local consumption, and\nquotes Hume: he \"could not remember a passage in any ancient author where\nthe growth of a city is to be ascribed to the establishment of a\nmanufacture.\" Almost all available evidence for the manufacturers themselves\npresent them as being very small operators, \"not even little Wedgewoods\".\nThe largest operation he can find in 5th century Athens is Cephalus' shield\nfactory, employing 100+ slaves - note that it is *slaves*, not craftspeople,\nwho do the work, and that Cephalus was a metic, not a citizen.\n\nIs there any historical evidence of a merchant like Hypereides fitting out\nand commanding warships in classical Athens?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "The Wynns", "address": "the.wynns at usa.net" }, "date": "2003-06-16T07:42:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Archaic Rome in Soldier", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Josh wrote:\nTrade was very important. All of those Greek vases that we find, all\nover the Mediterranean, those were largely packaging for olive oil or\nwine or whatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then Andrew replied:\n[Finley in \"The Ancient Economy\"] can find only two significant sources\nof \"trade\" related income for Athens from the 4th Century on - silver and\ntourism. Fine pottery is the only significant manufactured export he can\nfind evidence for (which apparently died out in the 4th cent)...\n\nIs there any historical evidence of a merchant like Hypereides fitting out\nand commanding warships in classical Athens?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll take on Finley first. I haven't read Finley and I don't know what he\nmeans by \"evidence\" or \"rare\". The impression I get from Herodotus is that\nsea-trade was not rare among Ionic Greeks and Phoenicians (although\nsometimes one gets the idea that it was considered a seemly profession for\nno one else). Greek traders seemed inclined to buy anything -- including\nthings for which there was no local value (Herodotus 2:39).\n\nAnd what about all the trade routes in the Near and Middle East some dating\nback into prehistory? Cyrus may have not thought much of the Ionians markets\n(according to Herodotus 1:153) but he did build the Royal Road from Sardis\n(capitol of Ionic Greece) to Susa (sixth century) which immediately became\nan important trade route.\n\nHowever, Herodotus' history is rife with references to Ionic Greek and\nPhoenician merchant ships. Does Finely explain this discrepancy?\n\nIt is true that I know of no reference from Herodotus or Thucydides that\nAthens created its navy on the backs of the merchant class, but it would be\na reasonable inference on Wolfe's part. Athens' extensive standing navy was\nbuilt only after the Persian War, from tribute of client states. Where would\nAthens' \"wooden wall\" have come from? Where would their competent sailors\nhave come from? Reasonably, since the Ionians were sea-traders -- they had\nto defend themselves from (and fight as) pirates and privateers.\n\nThe following are some quickly drawn references from Herodotus suggesting\nthat traders were not rare world-wide and could be competent warriors....\n\nHerodotus 2:141\nTale of an Egyptian king that neglected the \"warrior class\" and went to war\nand conquered drawing his army entirely from the \"traders, artisans, and\nmarket-people\".\n\nHerodotus 5:9\n\"Sigynnae is the name which the Ligurians who dwell above Massilia [modern\nMarseilles] give to traders, while among the Cyprians the word means\nspears.\"\n\n--- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-06-16T07:54:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Archaic Rome in Soldier", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll take on Finley first. I haven't read Finley and I don't know what he\nmeans by \"evidence\" or \"rare\". The impression I get from Herodotus is that\nsea-trade was not rare among Ionic Greeks and Phoenicians (although\nsometimes one gets the idea that it was considered a seemly profession for\nno one else). Greek traders seemed inclined to buy anything -- including\nthings for which there was no local value (Herodotus 2:39).\nAnd what about all the trade routes in the Near and Middle East some\ndating\nback into prehistory? Cyrus may have not thought much of the Ionians\nmarkets\n(according to Herodotus 1:153) but he did build the Royal Road from Sardis\n(capitol of Ionic Greece) to Susa (sixth century) which immediately became\nan important trade route.\nHowever, Herodotus' history is rife with references to Ionic Greek and\nPhoenician merchant ships. Does Finely explain this discrepancy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Finley's argument against widespread trade, rather it's\nagainst widespread *economically important* trade of anything except\nrarities. In the chapter I referred to, after a discussion of Athens, he\nsays this:\n\n\"To sum up: essentially the ability of ancient cities to pay for their food,\nmetals, slaves, and other necessities rested on four variables: the amount\nof *local* agricultural production [...]; the presence or absence of\nspecial resources, silver above all [...]; the invisible exports of trade\nand tourism; and fourth, the income from [empire, tribute, gifts etc.] The\ncontribution of manufactures was negligble ...\"\n\nOn his model, manufacture is almost entirely for a local market; communities\nusually didn't balance their accounts with a manufacture-for-export\napproach; and \"when Greek and Roman moralists allow [grudgingly] that\nforeign traders have some virtue, unlike local pety shopkeepers, they\ninvariably credit them with public service as importers.\"\n\nYour example from Herodotus wouldn't contradict this; the head of a\nsacrificed beast presumably isn't something which is going to figure large\nin any city's balance of payments :)\n\nI would be extremely surprised if the Royal Road was built for any explicit\npurpose other than the movement of troops, like every other state-sponsored\nroad in antiquity. But maybe I'm wrong. You have to remember that moving\ngoods by road, even fine Roman roads, was a hellishly uneconomic\nproposition. The example I've seen cited in different places is the way it\nwas cheaper to move a load of cargo from one end of the Mediterranean to the\nother, than it was to move it twenty miles by bullock cart.\n\nThere are lots of people who diagree with Finley, I know, but he's certainly\nworth reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is true that I know of no reference from Herodotus or Thucydides that\nAthens created its navy on the backs of the merchant class, but it would\nbe\na reasonable inference on Wolfe's part. Athens' extensive standing navy\nwas\nbuilt only after the Persian War, from tribute of client states. Where\nwould\nAthens' \"wooden wall\" have come from? Where would their competent sailors\nhave come from? Reasonably, since the Ionians were sea-traders -- they\nhad\nto defend themselves from (and fight as) pirates and privateers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, specifically, the silver mines funded much of the ship-building, if\nnot most of it. (Her. 7.144). Themistocles championed using surplus funds\nfrom the new find at Laurium to build 200 ships for a prospective war\nagainst Aegina which \"proved to be the salvation of Greece, because it\nforced the Athenaians to turn towards the sea\". When the conflict with\nPersia approached, \"they felt obliged to to undertake further\nship-building\". Just from that passage, it apears that ship building was a\nstate thing, funded by the silver which was really what made Athens much of\nanything compared to say Thebes, and not some kind of public liturgy on\nwealthy citizens. But maybe there's other evidence somewhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The following are some quickly drawn references from Herodotus suggesting\nthat traders were not rare world-wide and could be competent warriors....\n\nHerodotus 2:141\nTale of an Egyptian king that neglected the \"warrior class\" and went to\nwar\nand conquered drawing his army entirely from the \"traders, artisans, and\nmarket-people\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But surely one of the elements of this little tale is the unlikely image of\nmarketplace \"rabble\" forming an army, coupled with the folk-tale thing about\nmice chewing through the enemies' bowstrings etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Herodotus 5:9\n\"Sigynnae is the name which the Ligurians who dwell above Massilia [modern\nMarseilles] give to traders, while among the Cyprians the word means\nspears.\"\n\n--- Crush\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-06-16T14:55:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Archaic Rome in Soldier", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have the book on hand to reference as someone else did, but I \nremember a passage in Herodotus that explicitly says that traders were \nlooked down on in Greece, more in some cities and less in others. He cites \none city in particular - Corinth, I think, but I'm not sure - where they are \nhardly looked down on at all. But we can infer that there would be some \nprejudice in the other cities. Probably not quite as much in Athens as in \nSparta, but still there.\n\nre: Latro as an Immortal, I didn't actually know that foreigners were \nallowed in that unit - Herodotus didn't say an awful lot about it, and I \nhaven't read other sources. But certainly that would help to explain things. \nThough, I'm not so sure his entire unit would have been used that way. If \nthey were, it seems more likely that they would have been caught in the \nlater fighting around Thebes than to have gotten so far away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How anachronistic are the glimpses we get? Eg: at the very start of Mist, \nLatro says that he would have though the commander of a warship would be a \n\"horseman\". Presumably by this he means somebody of equestrian rank, rather \nthan a low-status money-grubbing merchant. This seems like an accurate \nportrayal of Roman attitudes during later times, but what do we know of \nsuch distinctions from the archaic period? I guess I need to go back to \nLivy or something.\n\nAlso, I have doubts about the picture of Athens presented in the same \nlittle passage. Did merchants really have high status in classical Athens? \nI have a mental picture of a society where the honorable path to wealth was \nthrough land, and booty taken in wars, and where on the nitty-gritty side \nof things the silver mines were a far more important part of the \"GDP\" and \nthe war economy, than anything to do with trade & merchandise. Maybe I'm \nwrong, but the Hypereides character doesn't feel right.\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "The Wynns", "address": "the.wynns at usa.net" }, "date": "2003-06-17T01:48:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Archaic Rome in Soldier", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew responds to Crush:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, specifically, the silver mines funded much of the ship-building,\nif not most of it. (Her. 7.144). Themistocles championed using surplus\nfunds from the new find at Laurium to build 200 ships for a prospective\nwar against Aegina..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:\nOkay, good point. Rawlinson says that this build-up increased the size of\nthe Athenian navy \"up to\" 200 ships, which was the number of ships Athens\nused at the battles of Artemisium and Salamus. So Athens did have a standing\nnavy of 200 ships and this was the number of ships it employed in the war.\nSo there is probably no compelling evidence from Herodotus of Athens forcing\nmerchants to outfit ships for the fleet.\n\nAndrew originally said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, I have doubts about the picture of Athens presented in the same\nlittle passage. Did merchants really have high status in classical Athens?\nI have a mental picture of a society where the honorable path to wealth\nwas through land, and booty taken in wars, and where on the nitty-gritty\nside of things the silver mines were a far more important part of the\n\"GDP\" and the war economy, than anything to do with trade &\nmerchandise. Maybe I'm wrong, but the Hypereides character doesn't\nfeel right." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then Andrew said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think Finley's argument against widespread trade, rather\nit's against widespread *economically important* trade of\nanything except rarities. In the chapter I referred to, after a\ndiscussion of Athens, he says this:\n[Finley says] \"To sum up: essentially the ability of ancient cities to pay\nfor their food, metals, slaves, and other necessities rested on four\nvariables: the amount of *local* agricultural production [...]; the\npresence or absence of special resources, silver above all [...]; the\ninvisible exports of trade and tourism; and fourth, the income from\n[empire, tribute, gifts etc.] The contribution of manufactures was\nnegligble ...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On his model, manufacture is almost entirely for a local market;\ncommunities usually didn't balance their accounts with a manufacture-\nfor-export approach; and \"when Greek and Roman moralists allow\n[grudgingly] that foreign traders have some virtue, unlike local petty\nshopkeepers, they invariably credit them with public service as\nimporters.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:\nOkay, I think I understand your point now: That a manufacturer being\ninvolved in distributing and shipping leather rather than a maker of leather\ntools or cattleman is anachronistic (but growing olives for export would be\na different matter). But is that really the case for Hypereides? Now that I\nlook back, he does not seem to have been involved directly with ships in his\nbusiness before he was called on to build and command his three ships. He\nonly says that \"a man does learn a bit about ships in the leather trade\"\n(SotM, chap. 7). Hmm. looking back, it seems we really know very little\nabout Hypereides' business. He doesn't say he's a tanner. He could be a\nlarge cattleman who recently became a war profiteer. He might have slaves\nrather than employees. Athenians would need leather for armor and shields\nand triremes. There is money to be made there. Athens voted money to go into\nships, but someone has to make those ships, maintain the ships, hire the\nrowers, pick the soldiers. Is Hypereides existence really contrary to what\nHerodotus or Finley say?\n\nAlso, trade would not be as important to municipalities because it would be\nmuch more obvious how agriculture and mining could be taxed rather than\ntraders and sellers. But that does not mean they were not vital to the\neconomy and represented an unrecognized but significant chunk of the GNP\nof any advance culture that did not deliberately base its economy on tribute\nor plunder (such as Sparta or Susa). But even then, when one thinks about\nwhat would be required to field and maintain scores of thousands of\nsoldiers, cavalrymen, and sailors just for **two days** it is difficult to\nimagine\nhow the Persian war could be conducted without a significant\ncraftsman/trader\nclass.\n\nYou know, Hypereides makes me think of Marrow. They are both mildly\nprominent merchants whose physical description makes me think of Gene Wolfe.\n\nRegarding Herodotus 2:141, Andrew says:\nBut surely one of the elements of this little tale is the unlikely image of\nmarketplace \"rabble\" forming an army, coupled with the folk-tale thing about\nmice chewing through the enemies' bowstrings etc.\n\nCrush responds:\nI don't think so. For the tale to have the ring of credibility to Herodotus,\nit suggests that the artisans, traders, and merchants had a significant\ndegree of self-organization rather than being merely milling rabble. And\nthere had to be a lot of them.\n\nChris said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...I remember a passage in Herodotus that explicitly says that traders\nwere looked down on in Greece, more in some cities and less in others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:\nThis is in Her. 2:166. It says:\n\"Like the Hermotybians, [the Kalasirians] are forbidden to pursue any trade,\nand devote themselves entirely to warlike exercises, the son following the\nfather's calling. Whether the Greeks borrowed from the Egyptians their\nnotions about trade, like so many others, I cannot say for certain. I have\nremarked that the Thracians, the Scyths, the Persians, the Lydians, and\nalmost all other barbarians, hold the citizens who practice trades, and\ntheir children, in less repute than the rest, while they esteem as noble\nthose who keep aloof from handicrafts, and especially honor such as are\ngiven wholly to war. These ideas prevail throughout the whole of Greece,\nparticularly among the Lacedaemonians. Corinth is the place where craftsmen\nare least despised. \"\n\nI think Herodotus' characterization represents the hostility always felt\ntoward the middle class in highly class-conscience societies. They are a\nthreat to privileged classes who in turn mock them as absurd pretenders, and\nthe poorer classes view them with envy. But as Herodotus admits, Ionic\nGreeks were very deeply employed in the shipping trade (and, yes, piracy\ntoo).\n\n-- Crush" } ] } ] }