{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4027", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4027, "subject": "Immortals and Archaic Rome", "messages": 8, "voices": 7, "first": "2003-06-16T20:06:02+00:00", "last": "2003-06-19T14:58:19+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "The Wynns", "address": "the.wynns at usa.net" }, "date": "2003-06-16T20:06:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Immortals and Archaic Rome", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "re: Latro as an Immortal, I didn't actually know that foreigners were\nallowed in that unit - Herodotus didn't say an awful lot about it, and I\nhaven't read other sources. But certainly that would help to explain\nthings.\nThough, I'm not so sure his entire unit would have been used that way. If\nthey were, it seems more likely that they would have been caught in the\nlater fighting around Thebes than to have gotten so far away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush recants:\nHmmm. Herodotus 7:83 says that the Immortals were \"all Persians\". So either\nLatro was not an Immortal, or Wolfe is engaging in literary license in\npresuming that Latro somehow gained a special honor. There *were* 10,000 of\nthem so I guess it is not inconceivable that a Latin slipped in.\n\nDoes identifying Latro as the killer of Leonidas reveal anything? Her. 7:218\nseems to suggest Leonidas was assaulted by the Immortals commanded by\nHydarnes. But Her. 7:223 says he was assaulted by the \"barbarians under\nXerxes\". So it could go either way.\n\nBut Latro is clearly a seasoned tactician. I seem to recall someone saying\nhe looked to be in his early twenties. This has always been difficult for me\nto rectify. When could he have had the opportunity to study war\nanalytically? I can't remember where to find Latro's dream of him going into\nbattle with his fellow soldiers -- perhaps some a light could be shed from\nthere. I remember it was from there that I got the idea he was some kind of\nofficer.\n\nIt is true that Latium is not numbered among the armies of Xerxes. This is\nnot surprising. In 478 BC, Rome's republic was about 30 years old -- Rome\nwas only about 100 years beyond an age of legend. 150 years later, Rome was\nnot even considered worth the trouble for Alexander the Great or his heirs\nto conquer. At the time of the Persian War, Rome was in precarious war with\nits neighbors Veii and the Aequi. It is interesting to me that Latro left\nhis home to become a warrior when Rome was in nearly constant war from the\nlate 6th century to the late 5th.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-06-17T20:24:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Immortals and Archaic Rome", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush recants:\nHmmm. Herodotus 7:83 says that the Immortals were \"all Persians\". So either\nLatro was not an Immortal, or Wolfe is engaging in literary license in\npresuming that Latro somehow gained a special honor. There *were* 10,000 of\nthem so I guess it is not inconceivable that a Latin slipped in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Or maybe that \"Persian\" does not refer to race per se, but to \nthose considered part of Persia, which was pretty multifarious racially. \nLatro could have been an adopted \"Persian,\" since adoption of various kinds \nwas quite common in the ancient world.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-06-18T07:29:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Immortals and Archaic Rome", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 17/06/2003 21:24:23 James Jordan wrote:\n\nCrush recants:\nHmmm. Herodotus 7:83 says that the Immortals were \"all Persians\". So \neither\nLatro was not an Immortal, or Wolfe is engaging in literary license in\npresuming that Latro somehow gained a special honor. There *were* 10,000 \nof\nthem so I guess it is not inconceivable that a Latin slipped in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Or maybe that \"Persian\" does not refer to race per se, but to\nthose considered part of Persia, which was pretty multifarious racially.\nLatro could have been an adopted \"Persian,\" since adoption of various \nkinds\nwas quite common in the ancient world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The ancient historians had a pretty clear idea of what were Persians and \nwhat were other nations conquered by the Persian Empire. Just as they \nmade the distinction between Romans by origin, Roman citizens and subjects \nof Roman Empire. I don't know but I suspect that Medes, Parthians, \nAssyrians etc in the Immortal Guard would have been worth of comment.\n\nOf course I'm assuming that Herodotus didn't just make it up. ;-)\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-06-18T08:27:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Immortals and Archaic Rome", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The ancient historians had a pretty clear idea of what were Persians and\nwhat were other nations conquered by the Persian Empire. Just as they\nmade the distinction between Romans by origin, Roman citizens and subjects\nof Roman Empire. I don't know but I suspect that Medes, Parthians,\nAssyrians etc in the Immortal Guard would have been worth of comment.\n\nOf course I'm assuming that Herodotus didn't just make it up. ;-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyway, the relevant passage is Ch 37 of Mist for Thermopylae:\n\nLatro addresses \"the hundred\" (I guess he is acting as centurion, if that\nterm existed then): \"While the Immortals are gone, we could have no higher\nhonor than to be the protectors of the Universal King ...\".\n\nHer 8.210-224 gives the background. The Medes go in on the first day,\nfailing & making it plain to the King \"that although he had plenty of\ntroops, he did not have many men.\" The Immortals are then sent in, but they\ndo no better - fighting in a restricted area, with spears shorter than the\nGreeks'. Then Ephialtes the traitor reveals a path thru the mountains,\nallowing the Persians to attack from a more favorable position. The\nengagement takes place outside the narrows; Persian conscripts whipped on by\ntheir officers die like flies (as in Latro's account); but in the end appear\nto overwhelm the Spartans by weight of numbers. The Spartans fight with\nswords, their spears broken, their spears broken, and Leonidas falls but\nwith no deatils given. The Immortals are not mentioned.\n\nSo there's a blank space here concerning the Immortals, and the precise\ndetails of Leonidas' death, which GW has painted in. I think his premiss is\nthat the light infantry Medes and bowmen, not just the conscripts but\nprobably the Immortals also, have shown themselves inferior to the hoplite &\nthe phalanx, and Latro's heavy-armed, disciplined Romans are recognized as\nbeing a better \"force-on-force\" solution. This of course makes sense\nhistorically, since the Roman tactical organization which GW describes (the\ntwo pila, the short stabbing sword etc) was to prove superior to the\nhoplite/phalanx combination, but maybe anachronistic?\n\nFor Plataea, the passage is Ch 24 of Mist:\n\nLatro sees the red cloaks of the Spartiates in their falling-back manouevre.\nHe sees Mardonius on his white stallion in the midst of the Immortals - so\npresumably the Roman unit is somewhere close by, I imagine for the reason I\ngive above. The lightly-armed Medes and bowmen charge ahead, totally\ndisrupting Latro's formation, and smash themselves up on the reformed\nSpartan shield wall. The Persian forces are completely disorganized during\nthis charge, and are routed by the counter-attack.\n\n\"We broke ... Even when they made a new shield-wall we were only a mob\nbehind it. The Medes took the spears in their hands and broke them, died.\nThe arrows were no good ...\"\n\nThis all squares reasonably well with Her 9.59-9.63. The \"shield-wall\" is\nthe wall of the Persians' wickerwork shields mentioned in 9.61. The\nLacedaemonians attack this in 9.62, knocking it down, and the battle moves\nto around the temple of Demeter. The Persians grapple their spears & break\nthem, but are defeated due to their lack of body armor.\n\nFor whatever reason, it's clear that Latro's Romans have been given a place\nof honor, with the Persians, against the Spartans. Her 9.31 gives the\ndisposition of his army, mentioning \"only the most important ones by name -\nthe ones which were particularly prominent and famous ...\". The Romans\n*should* be included in this list, but of course they're not - hey, it's a\nnovel.\n\nHer 9.65 is interesting. \"I find it surprising that although the battle took\nplace by the gove of Demeter, not a single Persian either entered the\nprecinct or died there ... I think the goddess kept them away because they\nahd burnt her temple at Eleusis.\" Somewhere in that, I suppose, is the\nstory of what happened between Latro, \"bearer of the wolf's tooth\", and the\nGoddess, which I hope we'll someday get to hear." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-06-18T13:24:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Immortals and Archaic Rome", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Persians generally lacked infantry to match the Greeks. Before,\nduring and after the war they went to some efforts to hire Greek \ninfantry. They would have definitely found a use for a cohort or two\nof Roman infantry.\n\n\nJ.\n\n___" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 01:27, Andrew Bollen wrote:\nMatthew says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The ancient historians had a pretty clear idea of what were Persians and\nwhat were other nations conquered by the Persian Empire. Just as they\nmade the distinction between Romans by origin, Roman citizens and subjects\nof Roman Empire. I don't know but I suspect that Medes, Parthians,\nAssyrians etc in the Immortal Guard would have been worth of comment.\n\nOf course I'm assuming that Herodotus didn't just make it up. ;-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, the relevant passage is Ch 37 of Mist for Thermopylae:\n\nLatro addresses \"the hundred\" (I guess he is acting as centurion, if that\nterm existed then): \"While the Immortals are gone, we could have no higher\nhonor than to be the protectors of the Universal King ...\".\n\nHer 8.210-224 gives the background. The Medes go in on the first day,\nfailing & making it plain to the King \"that although he had plenty of\ntroops, he did not have many men.\" The Immortals are then sent in, but they\ndo no better - fighting in a restricted area, with spears shorter than the\nGreeks'. Then Ephialtes the traitor reveals a path thru the mountains,\nallowing the Persians to attack from a more favorable position. The\nengagement takes place outside the narrows; Persian conscripts whipped on by\ntheir officers die like flies (as in Latro's account); but in the end appear\nto overwhelm the Spartans by weight of numbers. The Spartans fight with\nswords, their spears broken, their spears broken, and Leonidas falls but\nwith no deatils given. The Immortals are not mentioned.\n\nSo there's a blank space here concerning the Immortals, and the precise\ndetails of Leonidas' death, which GW has painted in. I think his premiss is\nthat the light infantry Medes and bowmen, not just the conscripts but\nprobably the Immortals also, have shown themselves inferior to the hoplite &\nthe phalanx, and Latro's heavy-armed, disciplined Romans are recognized as\nbeing a better \"force-on-force\" solution. This of course makes sense\nhistorically, since the Roman tactical organization which GW describes (the\ntwo pila, the short stabbing sword etc) was to prove superior to the\nhoplite/phalanx combination, but maybe anachronistic?\n\nFor Plataea, the passage is Ch 24 of Mist:\n\nLatro sees the red cloaks of the Spartiates in their falling-back manouevre.\nHe sees Mardonius on his white stallion in the midst of the Immortals - so\npresumably the Roman unit is somewhere close by, I imagine for the reason I\ngive above. The lightly-armed Medes and bowmen charge ahead, totally\ndisrupting Latro's formation, and smash themselves up on the reformed\nSpartan shield wall. The Persian forces are completely disorganized during\nthis charge, and are routed by the counter-attack.\n\n\"We broke ... Even when they made a new shield-wall we were only a mob\nbehind it. The Medes took the spears in their hands and broke them, died.\nThe arrows were no good ...\"\n\nThis all squares reasonably well with Her 9.59-9.63. The \"shield-wall\" is\nthe wall of the Persians' wickerwork shields mentioned in 9.61. The\nLacedaemonians attack this in 9.62, knocking it down, and the battle moves\nto around the temple of Demeter. The Persians grapple their spears & break\nthem, but are defeated due to their lack of body armor.\n\nFor whatever reason, it's clear that Latro's Romans have been given a place\nof honor, with the Persians, against the Spartans. Her 9.31 gives the\ndisposition of his army, mentioning \"only the most important ones by name -\nthe ones which were particularly prominent and famous ...\". The Romans\n*should* be included in this list, but of course they're not - hey, it's a\nnovel.\n\nHer 9.65 is interesting. \"I find it surprising that although the battle took\nplace by the gove of Demeter, not a single Persian either entered the\nprecinct or died there ... I think the goddess kept them away because they\nahd burnt her temple at Eleusis.\" Somewhere in that, I suppose, is the\nstory of what happened between Latro, \"bearer of the wolf's tooth\", and the\nGoddess, which I hope we'll someday get to hear.\n\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Che Monro", "address": "flirt at technologist.com" }, "date": "2003-06-19T02:06:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Immortals and Archaic Rome", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Her 9.65 is interesting. \"I find it surprising that although the battle \ntook place by the gove of Demeter, not a single Persian either entered the \nprecinct or died there ... I think the goddess kept them away because they \nahd burnt her temple at Eleusis.\" Somewhere in that, I suppose, is the \nstory of what happened between Latro, \"bearer of the wolf's tooth\", and \nthe Goddess, which I hope we'll someday get to hear." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Look lady, I don't care who you are, I've got orders to burn this temple \nlike we did with the other one at Eleusis so either get out or I'll carry \nyou out...\"\n\nChe\n\nChé Franz Joseph Monro -- http://www.chemonro.com\nche at chemonro.com -- flirt at technologist.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-06-19T04:16:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Immortals and Archaic Rome", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm. This, combined with some other posts, made me wonder about languages. \nOur Lucius was fairly fluent in Greek (even if his memory problem leads to \nsome strange interpretation). IIRC he also was able to talk to Persians and \nPhoenicians in languages other than Greek. Perhaps he was simply very \nlearned, but I tend to think that he had lived for quite some time in a \nculturally diverse environment. If Lucius and his contingent had been living \namidst the Persian court for a fair amount of time, this makes it much more \nlikely that they'd be exiles rather than mercenaries. Certainly the Persian \nkings were fairly generous to other exiles.\n\nAnd now that I think about it, given the numerical advantage the Persians \nhad and the obvious problems with keeping them supplied, it would seem odd \nthat they would scrounge so far afield for mercenaries anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Persians generally lacked infantry to match the Greeks. Before,\nduring and after the war they went to some efforts to hire Greek\ninfantry. They would have definitely found a use for a cohort or two\nof Roman infantry.\n\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-06-19T14:58:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Immortals and Archaic Rome", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that somewhere in there it says that Latro and his people\nwent to Egypt for some reason. Egypt was then a Persian province.\n\nJ.\n\n___" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 21:16, Chris wrote:\nHmm. This, combined with some other posts, made me wonder about languages. \nOur Lucius was fairly fluent in Greek (even if his memory problem leads to \nsome strange interpretation). IIRC he also was able to talk to Persians and \nPhoenicians in languages other than Greek. Perhaps he was simply very \nlearned, but I tend to think that he had lived for quite some time in a \nculturally diverse environment. If Lucius and his contingent had been living \namidst the Persian court for a fair amount of time, this makes it much more \nlikely that they'd be exiles rather than mercenaries. Certainly the Persian \nkings were fairly generous to other exiles.\n\nAnd now that I think about it, given the numerical advantage the Persians \nhad and the obvious problems with keeping them supplied, it would seem odd \nthat they would scrounge so far afield for mercenaries anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Persians generally lacked infantry to match the Greeks. Before,\nduring and after the war they went to some efforts to hire Greek\ninfantry. They would have definitely found a use for a cohort or two\nof Roman infantry.\n\n\nJ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nMSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* \nhttp://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus\n\n\n-- " } ] } ] }