Subject: Re: (urth) Immortals and Archaic Rome

From: The Wynns <the.wynns at usa.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:06:02 +0000

Chris says:
> re: Latro as an Immortal, I didn't actually know that foreigners were
> allowed in that unit - Herodotus didn't say an awful lot about it, and I
> haven't read other sources. But certainly that would help to explain
things.
> Though, I'm not so sure his entire unit would have been used that way. If
> they were, it seems more likely that they would have been caught in the
> later fighting around Thebes than to have gotten so far away.

Crush recants:
Hmmm. Herodotus 7:83 says that the Immortals were "all Persians". So either
Latro was not an Immortal, or Wolfe is engaging in literary license in
presuming that Latro somehow gained a special honor. There *were* 10,000 of
them so I guess it is not inconceivable that a Latin slipped in.

Does identifying Latro as the killer of Leonidas reveal anything? Her. 7:218
seems to suggest Leonidas was assaulted by the Immortals commanded by
Hydarnes. But Her. 7:223 says he was assaulted by the "barbarians under
Xerxes". So it could go either way.

But Latro is clearly a seasoned tactician. I seem to recall someone saying
he looked to be in his early twenties. This has always been difficult for me
to rectify. When could he have had the opportunity to study war
analytically? I can't remember where to find Latro's dream of him going into
battle with his fellow soldiers -- perhaps some a light could be shed from
there. I remember it was from there that I got the idea he was some kind of
officer.

It is true that Latium is not numbered among the armies of Xerxes. This is
not surprising. In 478 BC, Rome's republic was about 30 years old -- Rome
was only about 100 years beyond an age of legend. 150 years later, Rome was
not even considered worth the trouble for Alexander the Great or his heirs
to conquer. At the time of the Persian War, Rome was in precarious war with
its neighbors Veii and the Aequi. It is interesting to me that Latro left
his home to become a warrior when Rome was in nearly constant war from the
late 6th century to the late 5th.

-- Crush

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 20:24:23 +0000

>them so I guess it is not inconceivable that a Latin slipped in.

         Or maybe that "Persian" does not refer to race per se, but to 
those considered part of Persia, which was pretty multifarious racially. 
Latro could have been an adopted "Persian," since adoption of various kinds 
was quite common in the ancient world.

Nutria

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:29:13 +0000

>was quite common in the ancient world.

The ancient historians had a pretty clear idea of what were Persians and 
what were other nations conquered by the Persian Empire.  Just as they 
made the distinction between Romans by origin, Roman citizens and subjects 
of Roman Empire.  I don't know but I suspect that Medes, Parthians, 
Assyrians etc in the Immortal Guard would have been worth of comment.

Of course I'm assuming that Herodotus didn't just make it up.  ;-)

Matthew

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From: Andrew Bollen <abollen at internode.on.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 08:27:03 +0000

> Of course I'm assuming that Herodotus didn't just make it up.  ;-)

Anyway, the relevant passage is Ch 37 of Mist for Thermopylae:

Latro addresses "the hundred" (I guess he is acting as centurion, if that
term existed then): "While the Immortals are gone, we could have no higher
honor than to be the protectors of the Universal King ...".

Her 8.210-224 gives the background. The Medes go in on the first day,
failing & making it plain to the King "that although he had plenty of
troops, he did not have many men." The Immortals are then sent in, but they
do no better - fighting in a restricted area, with spears shorter than the
Greeks'. Then Ephialtes the traitor reveals a path thru the mountains,
allowing the Persians to attack from a more favorable position. The
engagement takes place outside the narrows; Persian conscripts whipped on by
their officers die like flies (as in Latro's account); but in the end appear
to overwhelm the Spartans by weight of numbers. The Spartans fight with
swords, their spears broken,  their spears broken, and Leonidas falls but
with no deatils given. The Immortals are not mentioned.

So there's a blank space here concerning the Immortals, and the precise
details of Leonidas' death, which GW has painted in. I think his premiss is
that the light infantry Medes and bowmen, not just the conscripts but
probably the Immortals also, have shown themselves inferior to the hoplite &
the phalanx, and Latro's heavy-armed, disciplined Romans are recognized as
being a better "force-on-force" solution. This of course makes sense
historically, since the Roman tactical organization which GW describes (the
two pila, the short stabbing sword etc) was to prove superior to the
hoplite/phalanx combination, but maybe anachronistic?

For Plataea, the passage is Ch 24 of Mist:

Latro sees the red cloaks of the Spartiates in their falling-back manouevre.
He sees Mardonius on his white stallion in the midst of the Immortals - so
presumably the Roman unit is somewhere close by, I imagine for the reason I
give above. The lightly-armed Medes and bowmen charge ahead, totally
disrupting Latro's formation, and smash themselves up on the reformed
Spartan shield wall. The Persian forces are completely disorganized during
this charge, and are routed by the counter-attack.

"We broke ... Even when they made a new shield-wall we were only a mob
behind it. The Medes took the spears in their hands and broke them, died.
The arrows were no good ..."

This all squares reasonably well with Her 9.59-9.63. The "shield-wall" is
the wall of the Persians' wickerwork shields mentioned in 9.61. The
Lacedaemonians attack this in 9.62, knocking it down, and the battle moves
to around the temple of Demeter. The Persians grapple their spears & break
them, but are defeated due to their lack of body armor.

For whatever reason, it's clear that Latro's Romans have been given a place
of honor, with the Persians, against the Spartans. Her 9.31 gives the
disposition of his army, mentioning "only the most important ones by name -
the ones which were particularly prominent and famous ...". The Romans
*should* be included in this list, but of course they're not - hey, it's a
novel.

Her 9.65 is interesting. "I find it surprising that although the battle took
place by the gove of Demeter, not a single Persian either entered the
precinct or died there ... I think the goddess kept them away because they
ahd burnt her temple at Eleusis."  Somewhere in that, I suppose, is the
story of what happened between Latro, "bearer of the wolf's tooth", and the
Goddess, which I hope we'll someday get to hear.

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:24:50 +0000

The Persians generally lacked infantry to match the Greeks. Before,
during and after the war they went to some efforts to hire Greek 
infantry. They would have definitely found a use for a cohort or two
of Roman infantry.

J.

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From: Che Monro <flirt at technologist.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 02:06:01 +0000

>Her 9.65 is interesting. "I find it surprising that although the battle 
>took place by the gove of Demeter, not a single Persian either entered the 
>story of what happened between Latro, "bearer of the wolf's tooth", and 
>the Goddess, which I hope we'll someday get to hear.

"Look lady, I don't care who you are, I've got orders to burn this temple 
like we did with the other one at Eleusis so either get out or I'll carry 
you out..."

Che

Ché Franz Joseph Monro -- http://www.chemonro.com
che at chemonro.com    --     flirt at technologist.com 

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 04:16:22 +0000

Hmm. This, combined with some other posts, made me wonder about languages. 
Our Lucius was fairly fluent in Greek (even if his memory problem leads to 
some strange interpretation). IIRC he also was able to talk to Persians and 
Phoenicians in languages other than Greek. Perhaps he was simply very 
learned, but I tend to think that he had lived for quite some time in a 
culturally diverse environment. If Lucius and his contingent had been living 
amidst the Persian court for a fair amount of time, this makes it much more 
likely that they'd be exiles rather than mercenaries. Certainly the Persian 
kings were fairly generous to other exiles.

And now that I think about it, given the numerical advantage the Persians 
had and the obvious problems with keeping them supplied, it would seem odd 
that they would scrounge so far afield for mercenaries anyway.

>infantry. They would have definitely found a use for a cohort or two

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:58:19 +0000

I believe that somewhere in there it says that Latro and his people
went to Egypt for some reason. Egypt was then a Persian province.

J.

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