{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4032", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4032, "subject": "Latro's Greek", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2003-06-19T06:06:43+00:00", "last": "2003-06-19T15:49:34+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "the.wynns at usa.net" }, "date": "2003-06-19T06:54:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Latro's Greek", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris speculates:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm. This, combined with some other posts, made me wonder about languages.\nOur Lucius was fairly fluent in Greek (even if his memory problem leads to\nsome strange interpretation)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Latro does know a lot about Zoroastrianism and perhaps he speaks Persian.\nBut his knowledge of Greek was not formally learned. We know this because\nwhile he can speak it fluently **he cannot write it**. There is only one way\npeople learn foreign languages that way. The following is part of my notes\nI've been making as I am reading SotM again:\n\nThe Silent Country -- \nLakedaimonia; the environs ruled by the city of Sparta. The Greek word for\nSpartan was \"Lakon\", and for Sparta was \"Lakedaimon\" The Latin\ntransliteration is \"Laconicus\". Wolfe's explanation of Latro's calling\nSparta \"the silent country\" is that \"he seems to have heard some taciturn\nperson referred to as having Laconic manners and to have concluded that\n'Laconia' meant 'the Silent Country''.\n\nWolfe is correct in saying that the translation of \"Spartan\" is NOT \"silent\nperson\". The word \"laconic\" meant \"acting like a Spartan\", because Spartans\nhad a historical reputation for being concise. This use of the word is a\nmetaphor, just as the original meaning of the word \"stoic\" defined as\n\"impassive toward pleasure or pain\" meant no more or less than exhibiting\nthe precepts of the philosophy of Stoicism.\" Eventually, the word\n\"Laconicus\" for \"Spartan\" did enter the Latin language with the same meaning\n\"laconic\" has today, but the Spartan code probably did not have a reputation\noutside of the Peloponese. So Latro must have picked up the word \"laconic\"\nby way of a user that understood its meaning, but in a manner in which Latro\nhimself did not previously understand its derivation -- otherwise he would\nhave translated it properly as \"having to do with the Lakons\".\n\nSo where could Latro have heard the word \"laconic\" in absence of a knowledge\nof the Spartans? Certainly not during his campaign in Greece. In Egypt?\nPerhaps. There were a lot of Greek colonies there, but if he learned the\nword as an adult, he would have recognized the word as foreign and learned\nbeen curious about its etymology. The Forward also states that Latro spoke\n\"Greek fairly fluently, but...read it poorly or not at all.\" This\ncharacterization suggests that Latro was neither formally educated in Greek,\nnor was his knowledge merely \"practical\" -- picked up during his travels. He\nmust have learned Greek in his childhood, and learned the word \"laconic\" in\nthe manner in which Yiddish, Cajun, and Spanish words enter the lexicon of\nNew Yorkers, New Orleanians, and Texans. In this case the most likely\nlocation of Latro's farm was in Southern Latium, rather than being near the\ncity of Rome in the north. It would have been just north of the Grecian\ncolony Kynai or even Neopolis (modern Naples), both settled around 200 years\nprior to the beginning of \"Soldier of the Mist\".\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-06-19T06:06:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Latro's Greek", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So where could Latro have heard the word \"laconic\" in absence of a\nknowledge\nof the Spartans? Certainly not during his campaign in Greece. In Egypt?\nPerhaps." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he may have learned Greek in Egypt, on campaign, from the Greek\ncontingent in the Persian army. Her 3.1: \"\"... Cambyses the son of Cyrus led\nan army consisting of contingents from all over his empire, including some\nIonian and Aeolian Greeks.\" I guess Latro's band somehow ends up as a\nmercenary unit in this army.\n\nBut Rome certainly had dealings with Greek communities in Italy and Sicily\nat this time, so he could have learned it there, I suppose." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "the.wynns at usa.net" }, "date": "2003-06-19T15:49:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Latro's Greek", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew theorizes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think he may have learned Greek in Egypt, on campaign, from the Greek\ncontingent in the Persian army. Her 3.1: \"\"... Cambyses the son of Cyrus\nled\nan army consisting of contingents from all over his empire, including some\nIonian and Aeolian Greeks.\" I guess Latro's band somehow ends up as a\nmercenary unit in this army.\n\nBut Rome certainly had dealings with Greek communities in Italy and Sicily\nat this time, so he could have learned it there, I suppose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush replies:\nIf he learned Greek in Egypt, he would either have been formally taught and\nstudied Greek writing or he would have \"picked it up\" as practical Greek\n(i.e. he would not be fluent). It is only as children that we become fluent\nin a language without learning to write it -- that is, without years and\nyears of immersion in the language anyway -- which Latro is not old enough\nto have had. Also, if he learned it in Egypt, he would have understood the\nword \"laconic\" to mean \"related to the Spartan code of brevity of speech\" -- \nthe proper translation would have been in his mind just as the proper\ntranslation of other Greek words were in his mind.\n\nI reiterate: His reversal of \"lakodaemonians\" to mean \"silent people\"\n(rather than \"like Spartans who are silent\") means he had to have learned\nthe word \"laconic\" prior to his knowledge of the Spartan code or even\nSpartans. So he had to learn the word the same way he learned Greek, as a\nchild. But his native language is still Latin. World hellenization had not\nyet occurred in the 5th century -- it would not have been considered a\nmatter of course for educated people to learn Greek. So he needed to grow up\nin Latium, but near Greek people. Thus I place his home north of or around\nKynai or just north of modern Naples.\n\n-- Crush" } ] } ] }