Subject: Re: (urth) Latro's Greek

From: James Wynn <the.wynns at usa.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 06:54:53 +0000

Chris speculates:
> Hmm. This, combined with some other posts, made me wonder about languages.
> Our Lucius was fairly fluent in Greek (even if his memory problem leads to
> some strange interpretation).

Latro does know a lot about Zoroastrianism and perhaps he speaks Persian.
But his knowledge of Greek was not formally learned. We know this because
while he can speak it fluently **he cannot write it**. There is only one way
people learn foreign languages that way. The following is part of my notes
I've been making as I am reading SotM again:

The Silent Country -- 
Lakedaimonia; the environs ruled by the city of Sparta. The Greek word for
Spartan was "Lakon", and for Sparta was "Lakedaimon" The Latin
transliteration is "Laconicus". Wolfe's explanation of Latro's calling
Sparta "the silent country" is that "he seems to have heard some taciturn
person referred to as having Laconic manners and to have concluded that
'Laconia' meant 'the Silent Country''.

Wolfe is correct in saying that the translation of "Spartan" is NOT "silent
person". The word "laconic" meant "acting like a Spartan", because Spartans
had a historical reputation for being concise. This use of the word is a
metaphor, just as the original meaning of the word "stoic" defined as
"impassive toward pleasure or pain" meant no more or less than exhibiting
the precepts of the philosophy of Stoicism." Eventually, the word
"Laconicus" for "Spartan" did enter the Latin language with the same meaning
"laconic" has today, but the Spartan code probably did not have a reputation
outside of the Peloponese. So Latro must have picked up the word "laconic"
by way of a user that understood its meaning, but in a manner in which Latro
himself did not previously understand its derivation -- otherwise he would
have translated it properly as "having to do with the Lakons".

So where could Latro have heard the word "laconic" in absence of a knowledge
of the Spartans? Certainly not during his campaign in Greece. In Egypt?
Perhaps. There were a lot of Greek colonies there, but if he learned the
word as an adult, he would have recognized the word as foreign and learned
been curious about its etymology. The Forward also states that Latro spoke
"Greek fairly fluently, but...read it poorly or not at all." This
characterization suggests that Latro was neither formally educated in Greek,
nor was his knowledge merely "practical" -- picked up during his travels. He
must have learned Greek in his childhood, and learned the word "laconic" in
the manner in which Yiddish, Cajun, and Spanish words enter the lexicon of
New Yorkers, New Orleanians, and Texans. In this case the most likely
location of Latro's farm was in Southern Latium, rather than being near the
city of Rome in the north. It would have been just north of the Grecian
colony Kynai or even Neopolis (modern Naples), both settled around 200 years
prior to the beginning of "Soldier of the Mist".

-- Crush

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From: Andrew Bollen <abollen at internode.on.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 06:06:43 +0000

> Perhaps.

I think he may have learned Greek in Egypt, on campaign, from the Greek
contingent in the Persian army. Her 3.1: ""... Cambyses the son of Cyrus led
an army consisting of contingents from all over his empire, including some
Ionian and Aeolian Greeks." I guess Latro's band somehow ends up as a
mercenary unit in this army.

But Rome certainly had dealings with Greek communities in Italy and Sicily
at this time, so he could have learned it there, I suppose.

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From: James Wynn <the.wynns at usa.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 15:49:34 +0000

> at this time, so he could have learned it there, I suppose.

Crush replies:
If he learned Greek in Egypt, he would either have been formally taught and
studied Greek writing or he would have "picked it up" as practical Greek
(i.e. he would not be fluent). It is only as children that we become fluent
in a language without learning to write it -- that is, without years and
years of immersion in the language anyway -- which Latro is not old enough
to have had. Also, if he learned it in Egypt, he would have understood the
word "laconic" to mean "related to the Spartan code of brevity of speech" -- 
the proper translation would have been in his mind just as the proper
translation of other Greek words were in his mind.

I reiterate: His reversal of "lakodaemonians" to mean "silent people"
(rather than "like Spartans who are silent") means he had to have learned
the word "laconic" prior to his knowledge of the Spartan code or even
Spartans. So he had to learn the word the same way he learned Greek, as a
child. But his native language is still Latin. World hellenization had not
yet occurred in the 5th century -- it would not have been considered a
matter of course for educated people to learn Greek. So he needed to grow up
in Latium, but near Greek people. Thus I place his home north of or around
Kynai or just north of modern Naples.

-- Crush

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