{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4033", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4033, "subject": "(TBOTN) Utter speculation", "messages": 9, "voices": 7, "first": "2003-06-19T17:47:44+00:00", "last": "2003-06-20T07:53:10+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-06-19T17:47:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (TBOTN) Utter speculation", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been thinking about the Wall of Nessus and\nBaldander's assertion (ch. 35 of Shadow) that the open\nspace inside the walls wasn't for Nessus' expansion.\nBut something about the sheer size and height of the\nwalls made me wonder how far off it would be to\nsuggest that Nessus wasn't always a city but that it\nwas initially (possibly) one huge space pad. Assuming\nthat the walls are circular, then would it be possible\nthat what we have is some kind of base for a huge\ncylinder, like...the Whorl?\n\nNow this would be a rather insane (and, as far as I\ncan tell) rather impossible way to build and \"launch\"\na ship as big as the Whorl (which seems to be too\nmassive to ever be \"launched\" from a planet).\nStill...why is the wall miles high and spread so far\naround the city?\n\nIf someone can easily disabuse me of this idea, please\ndo so since it's captured my easily distracted\nimagination.\n\nCraig" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-06-19T18:13:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) (TBOTN) Utter speculation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig wrote:\nI've been thinking about the Wall of Nessus and\nBaldander's assertion (ch. 35 of Shadow) that the open\nspace inside the walls wasn't for Nessus' expansion.\nBut something about the sheer size and height of the\nwalls made me wonder how far off it would be to\nsuggest that Nessus wasn't always a city but that it\nwas initially (possibly) one huge space pad. Assuming\nthat the walls are circular, then would it be possible\nthat what we have is some kind of base for a huge\ncylinder, like...the Whorl?\n\nNow this would be a rather insane (and, as far as I\ncan tell) rather impossible way to build and \"launch\"\na ship as big as the Whorl (which seems to be too\nmassive to ever be \"launched\" from a planet).\nStill...why is the wall miles high and spread so far\naround the city?\n\nIf someone can easily disabuse me of this idea, please\ndo so since it's captured my easily distracted\nimagination." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, no diabusing from me! I'll just spur you on -- you haven't gone far\nenough yet! (Well except for the Whorl lifting off from Urth; I'll agree\nthat seems unlikely.)\n\nFact: the Walls pre-date the city.\n\nFact: the city has been crawling upstream for a long time, so it has\npresumably entered the walls and taken up residence like a hermit crab\nmoving into a found shell.\n\nFact: the citadel pre-dates the city, and the earliest name we have for it\nis the Old Port, iirc. So it probably was one of the ports from which\npeople and materials where shuttled up to the Whorl (and that was\nrelatively late in history -- the city was . . . approaching, but not there\nyet? The necropolis was for the military people based at the Old Port --\nit was a military point); it was definitely a dumping ground for old\nworthless ships.\n\nAs for the why, who knows? Gene Wolfe might not even know. It is a Big\nDumb Object that is an Enigma, with echos of the Tower of Babel and skiffy\nnotions like a failed sky-elevator, or a blast-containment area for ships\nwith radioactive exhaust, or a simple terrarium-type structure (an early\nTrantor-style \"world building\" module?) that never got its Buckydome roof,\nor just a super \"particle accelerator.\" IIRC it is a feature of the dying\nsun fictions (if not even the gothic before it?) to have gigantism like\nthis.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/\n\neBay Auctions\nhttp://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=mr.sirius" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-06-19T18:23:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) (TBOTN) Utter speculation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:47 PM 6/19/2003, you wrote:\nI've been thinking about the Wall of Nessus and\nBaldander's assertion (ch. 35 of Shadow) that the open\nspace inside the walls wasn't for Nessus' expansion.\nBut something about the sheer size and height of the\nwalls made me wonder how far off it would be to\nsuggest that Nessus wasn't always a city but that it\nwas initially (possibly) one huge space pad. Assuming\nthat the walls are circular, then would it be possible\nthat what we have is some kind of base for a huge\ncylinder, like...the Whorl?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I thought the Whorl was a hollowed out asteroid, thus made in \nspace. But the rest of your suggestion makes some sense. Even ordinary \nrockets blasting off might require a high wall, to stop noise pollution if \nnothing else. Typhon would have launched a LOT of ships to populate and \nsupply Whorl. (But maybe we're both forgetting something.)\n An awful thought just hit me: Doesn't *Starship Troopers* start \noff in Buenos Aires? Naw, it can't be. Nessus is the city of Borges, not of \nHeinlein.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-06-19T18:29:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) (TBOTN) Utter speculation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 01:13 PM 6/19/2003, you wrote:\n\n IIRC it is a feature of the dying" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "sun fictions (if not even the gothic before it?) to have gigantism like\nthis.\n\n=mantis=" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe it's Lewis Mumford who points out that the building of huge \nbuildings and monuments is an aspect of the last and dying phase of a \nstrong culture. An active and growing culture does not take the time to \nbuild such things to its own glory. Another version of Parkinson's Law: \n\"The efficiency of an organization is in inverse proportion to the depth of \ncarpet pile in its headquarters' offices.\"\n But I'm inclined to think the wall is a huge blast shield of some \nsort.\n\nFWIW\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "the.wynns at usa.net" }, "date": "2003-06-19T19:42:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) (TBOTN) Utter speculation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael Andre-Driussi said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fact: the citadel pre-dates the city, and the earliest name we have for it\nis the Old Port, iirc. So it probably was one of the ports from which\npeople and materials where shuttled up to the Whorl (and that was\nrelatively late in history -- the city was . . . approaching, but not\nthere\nyet?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:\nIf it's older name was \"the Old Port\", then there ought to be a \"New Port\".\nBut the new port wouldn't be called that. It would be given a jazzier name.\nJust as when the state builds a new highway it's called the Typhon W. Rex\nMemorial highway or whatever and the old highway is called \"Old Thrax Rd.\"\n\nSo maybe they didn't launch to the Whorl from there. Or maybe they did.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-06-19T18:42:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) (TBOTN) Utter speculation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "= \"Craig wrote this.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "= \"Mantis wrote this.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Assuming\nthat the walls are circular, then would it be possible\nthat what we have is some kind of base for a huge\ncylinder, like...the Whorl?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now this would be a rather insane (and, as far as I\ncan tell) rather impossible way to build and \"launch\"\na ship as big as the Whorl (which seems to be too\nmassive to ever be \"launched\" from a planet).\nStill...why is the wall miles high and spread so far\naround the city?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I like much of your and Mantis's) ideas here, I'm pretty\nsure that Nessus is more than a thousand years old and so\npredates Typhon and the _Whorl_. (In fact, I think it's\n_much_ more, but I can't recall a cite at present to prove\nit.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now this would be a rather insane (and, as far as I\ncan tell) rather impossible way to build and \"launch\"\na ship as big as the Whorl (which seems to be too\nmassive to ever be \"launched\" from a planet).\nStill...why is the wall miles high and spread so far\naround the city?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect that the Wall was originally built to contain damage in the\nevent of a crash (something Mantis tosses off below). It would be\nmiles high to limit the escape of hazardous materials (radioactives,\nalien life spores, etc.) on the wind.\n\nPondering: There are a few things of BDO scale in the NS books. Some\nof them are alive. Is there any connection between them and the\nnonliving ones? Could the Wall (despite my, I think, convincing theory\nabove) have anything to do with them? Probably not; a wall isn't necessary\nto keep them \"out\" since they can't walk abroad on land." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fact: the Walls pre-date the city.\n\nFact: the city has been crawling upstream for a long time, so it has\npresumably entered the walls and taken up residence like a hermit crab\nmoving into a found shell." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Question: Do we know that the Walls form a closed ... circle, or whatever?\nOr are they open to the Sea? Or extend out into it? I don't recall Sev.\nmentioning passsing through them as he comes up the river on _Samru_,\nbut my memory could well be faulty in this. Anyone recall such a thing?\n\nH'mmm. If they aren't fully closed, that blows off the \"containment\" theory,\ndoesn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fact: the citadel pre-dates the city, and the earliest name we have for it\nis the Old Port, iirc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Citidel was clearly the old spaceport, yeah. I mean, that's why the\nTowers are old spaceships, neh?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So it probably was one of the ports from which\npeople and materials where shuttled up to the Whorl (and that was\nrelatively late in history -- the city was . . . approaching, but not there\nyet?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Umm, no. The towers were already towers in Typhon's time, if I'm not\ntotally mistaken; they take Sev to the Matachin in UotNS, don't they? I'm\npretty sure it's not a port anymore at that point. H'mm: does anyone\nrecall whether the city is surrounding the Citadel yet at that point? Or if\nthere's any indication?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the why, who knows? Gene Wolfe might not even know. It is a Big\nDumb Object that is an Enigma, with echos of the Tower of Babel and skiffy\nnotions like a failed sky-elevator, or a blast-containment area for ships\nwith radioactive exhaust, or a simple terrarium-type structure (an early\nTrantor-style \"world building\" module?) that never got its Buckydome roof,\nor just a super \"particle accelerator.\" IIRC it is a feature of the dying\nsun fictions (if not even the gothic before it?) to have gigantism like\nthis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes ... Aside from Vance, the other major \"dying Earth\" work would be\nAldiss' _Hothouse_, which has its share of biological gigantism -- the \nworld-\nbanyan, the spiders that web the Earth to the Moon ...\n\nHey, now. It occurs to me, going waaaaaaaaaaay back to certain theories\nabout trees. Could _Short Sun_ (and especially Green) be related to\nAldiss' book in a way similar to _New Sun_'s relationship to Vance's?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-06-19T20:08:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) (TBOTN) Utter speculation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "AND Hodgson's THE NIGHT LAND is of course rife with giganticism, with an\neight-mile-tall arcology with hundred-mile-deep sublevels, mile-tall\nWatchers, giant Slugs, screaming mountains, fifty-mile-deep canyons in the\nEarth, and so forth.\n\nI think the Walls are ancient \"starship-level\" technology, but I suspect\nthey were built as part of the war aganst Abia. Maybe they were a dyke\naganst inundation. Maybe once Nessus WAS the entire Republic.\n\n hartshorn\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nor just a super \"particle accelerator.\" IIRC it is a feature of the\ndying\nsun fictions (if not even the gothic before it?) to have gigantism like\nthis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes ... Aside from Vance, the other major \"dying Earth\" work would be\nAldiss' _Hothouse_, which has its share of biological gigantism -- the\nworld-\nbanyan, the spiders that web the Earth to the Moon ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-06-20T07:33:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) (TBOTN) Utter speculation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 19/06/2003 18:47:44 Craig Brewer wrote:\nI've been thinking about the Wall of Nessus and\nBaldander's assertion (ch. 35 of Shadow) that the open\nspace inside the walls wasn't for Nessus' expansion.\nBut something about the sheer size and height of the\nwalls made me wonder how far off it would be to\nsuggest that Nessus wasn't always a city but that it\nwas initially (possibly) one huge space pad. Assuming\nthat the walls are circular, then would it be possible\nthat what we have is some kind of base for a huge\ncylinder, like...the Whorl?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can think of two mundane reasons for the space inside the wall.\n\nFirst to enclose farming land or other resources. That actually doesn't \nstand up very well because a technology that could build the wall is \nunlikely to be menaced by a purely ground based attack to the concept of \n\"wall\" is redundant unless there was more too it (speculations about \nforcefield domes have been made here in the past).\n\nThe second, and I think more logical potential reason is that the open \nspace within the wall is a killing ground - a space left bare to provide \nthe forces within the wall an unobstructed field of fire.\n\nSuch can be seen around fortifications built in our history but usually \noutside the walls so why a killing ground _inside_ the walls of Nessus.\n\nNessus - or rather the Citadel - is a space port; we might infer an \nimportant one. If it's the point of entry for cacogens or humans \nreturning from the empire it's an obvious danger zone and one might well \nwant to keep affective guns trained on it. Thus Nessus isn't \"within\" the \nwall but \"outside it, the wall enclosing the rest of the world.\n\nThere's nothing I can recall to directly support this but consider that \nNessus once much smaller; had the space port / Citadel to it's north while \nnow the Citadel is in the southern inhabited reaches of the city. My \nimpression was always that the circle formed by the wall was centered on \nthe Citadel - again, no recalled evidence - and that the presence of \nNessus, the city, was actually unrelated to the existence of the wall.\n\nIf that's credible then one should ask why the prohibition remains long \nafter it ceased to be meaningful. One reason is the inertia such things \nhave, law become custom and the Commonwealth seems riddled with such. \nAnother is that as Nessus grew from a seaport to a great metropolis, the \nlargest concentration of people and thus trouble in the realm, subsequent \nAutarchs might have appreciated the wisdom of not having the rabble wash \nup right to the foot of the fortifications.\n\nOh, and as for the Whorl I'm fairly sure Marble describes being ferried up \nto it with an implication that it was constructed in orbit.\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-06-20T07:53:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) (TBOTN) Utter speculation", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 19/06/2003 20:42:13 James Wynn wrote:\nMichael Andre-Driussi said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fact: the citadel pre-dates the city, and the earliest name we have for \nit\nis the Old Port, iirc. So it probably was one of the ports from which\npeople and materials where shuttled up to the Whorl (and that was\nrelatively late in history -- the city was . . . approaching, but not\nthere\nyet?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush responds:\nIf it's older name was \"the Old Port\", then there ought to be a \"New \nPort\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"earliest name _we_ have for it\" Which we get on Severian's misplaced \nreturn in time.\n\n\"Old\" can simply mean it's been there a long time. By then it's redundant, \nthe ships have been grounded so long walls have been built between them \nbut it's know not have been a port and thet they are ships; something not \nimmediately obvious to the people in TBotNS.\n\nIf you must have a comparative perhaps the sea/river port that is Nessus \nis \"new\"; at least it was still active in Severians time(s).\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }