{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4056", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4056, "subject": "Crowley, Wolfe, Bruno", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-06-30T05:28:16+00:00", "last": "2003-06-30T16:25:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-06-30T05:28:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Crowley, Wolfe, Bruno", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just finished _Little, Big_, and first I owe a debt\nof thanks to this group for finally getting me around\nto Crowley. I've also been reading about Giordano\nBruno. The two books together (one of the characters\nmakes fluent use of Bruno's \"art of memory\" in LB)\nmade me wonder 1) if Wolfe has ever spoken about Bruno\nor Renaissance Neoplatonism in particular (apart from\nthe Kabalah which, coming as I am from Frances Yates\non this, isn't too far away from Bruno/Ficino/Pico and\nco.) and 2) if there's something \"art of memory\" like\ngoing on in the New Sun. Particularly, I was thinking\nabout why Severian is writing his story given his\npowers of memory. According to Bruno's practices,\nmemorization and repeated review can lead to new\ninsights about the things memorized since the\n\"subconscious\" or, as he would probably prefer,\nconcordanes and correspondences inherent in the things\nconsidered are able to bypass rational thought to\nproduce changes in the symbols of the objects\nmemorized.\n\nSo. Does Severian appear to gain any kind of\n\"mystical\" knowledge of his situation by writing it\nout and allowing his memory to play with it? I'm\nlooking through Urth of the New Sun right now to see\nif I can find any good passages, but I'm so far\nunsuccessful. Part of me wants to think that Malrubius\nand Triskele's reappearance as eidolons may have some\nkind of connection to this: they are (I believe)\nSeverian's creations which can assist him, but they\nare not under his control. Does the act of narrating\nhis story to himself serve some kind of similar\npurpose?\n\nThat's a messy question, but it struck me in _Little,\nBig_ how Crowley was able to use the idea of the Tale\nin which the characters live as a process towards\n\"transcendence.\" There are so many places in the book\nwhere the characters both act out their lives and\n\"read\" them or \"organize\" them for themselves at the\nsame time (in the pack of cards, the house itself, the\norrery that works only when it accurately reflects the\nheavens). Something about gathering all the pieces of\na story together in one place so that the story itself\ncan end and become something different is an\nintriguing idea.\n\nCraig" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Palumbo", "address": "enpalumb at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-06-30T16:25:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Crowley, Wolfe, Bruno", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Craig,\n\nI'm rerererereading THE BOOK OF THE NE SUN now, and there are places in \nwhich Severian does learn something useful he had not noticed before in \ngoing over his memories. For example--because this is in the chapters from \nCLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR that I read just yesterday, but not the best \npossible example--when he is searching for Terminus Est after escaping from \nthe antechamber in the House Absolute, he eventually thinks again about \nwhen and how he was captured in walking away from the place where the sword \nis, attributes this to the subconscious awareness that one has made a \nmistake even when the conscious mind doesn't know that, and realizes in \nreexamining his memories that the sword may well be where he finds it, \nbehind the broken door to the mirror-image storeroom on the other side of \nthe stairs from the storeroom he had first searched.\n\nI believe there are numerous instances like this; I'll keep an eye out for \nmore while I read. I think he often figures things out by going back into \nhis memory for data he can add to newly discovered information to reach a \nconclusion.\n\n--Don" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:28 PM 6/29/03 -0700, Craig Brewer wrote:\nI just finished _Little, Big_, and first I owe a debt\nof thanks to this group for finally getting me around\nto Crowley. I've also been reading about Giordano\nBruno. The two books together (one of the characters\nmakes fluent use of Bruno's \"art of memory\" in LB)\nmade me wonder 1) if Wolfe has ever spoken about Bruno\nor Renaissance Neoplatonism in particular (apart from\nthe Kabalah which, coming as I am from Frances Yates\non this, isn't too far away from Bruno/Ficino/Pico and\nco.) and 2) if there's something \"art of memory\" like\ngoing on in the New Sun. Particularly, I was thinking\nabout why Severian is writing his story given his\npowers of memory. According to Bruno's practices,\nmemorization and repeated review can lead to new\ninsights about the things memorized since the\n\"subconscious\" or, as he would probably prefer,\nconcordanes and correspondences inherent in the things\nconsidered are able to bypass rational thought to\nproduce changes in the symbols of the objects\nmemorized.\n\nSo. Does Severian appear to gain any kind of\n\"mystical\" knowledge of his situation by writing it\nout and allowing his memory to play with it? I'm\nlooking through Urth of the New Sun right now to see\nif I can find any good passages, but I'm so far\nunsuccessful. Part of me wants to think that Malrubius\nand Triskele's reappearance as eidolons may have some\nkind of connection to this: they are (I believe)\nSeverian's creations which can assist him, but they\nare not under his control. Does the act of narrating\nhis story to himself serve some kind of similar\npurpose?\n\nThat's a messy question, but it struck me in _Little,\nBig_ how Crowley was able to use the idea of the Tale\nin which the characters live as a process towards\n\"transcendence.\" There are so many places in the book\nwhere the characters both act out their lives and\n\"read\" them or \"organize\" them for themselves at the\nsame time (in the pack of cards, the house itself, the\norrery that works only when it accurately reflects the\nheavens). Something about gathering all the pieces of\na story together in one place so that the story itself\ncan end and become something different is an\nintriguing idea.\n\nCraig\n\n__________________________________\nDo you Yahoo!?\nSBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!\nhttp://sbc.yahoo.com\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-06-30T13:35:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Crowley, Wolfe, Bruno", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my opinion, Severian DOES build a \"house of memory\" - it is The Book Of\nThe New Sun.\n\nAnd of course, the various actors in that House affect each other and\nmutate, as they did in NeoPlatonic magic.\n\nYou might go furthur and say that the multi-time-tracked world is the\nIncreate's own House Of Memory. I am sure Wolfe would\n\n\n\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Don Palumbo\" \nCraig,\n\nI'm rerererereading THE BOOK OF THE NE SUN now, and there are places in\nwhich Severian does learn something useful he had not noticed before in\ngoing over his memories. For example--because this is in the chapters\nfrom\nCLAW OF THE CONCILIATOR that I read just yesterday, but not the best\npossible example--when he is searching for Terminus Est after escaping\nfrom\nthe antechamber in the House Absolute, he eventually thinks again about\nwhen and how he was captured in walking away from the place where the\nsword\nis, attributes this to the subconscious awareness that one has made a\nmistake even when the conscious mind doesn't know that, and realizes in\nreexamining his memories that the sword may well be where he finds it,\nbehind the broken door to the mirror-image storeroom on the other side of\nthe stairs from the storeroom he had first searched." } ] } ] }