Subject: (urth) horn, blue, hierax, etc.

From: maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 07:01:10 +0000

Thanks for the encouraging words, Mooncalf.  Yes, I believe at one point I 
posted that the huh-huh-huh sounds were Horn trying to say his own name to his 
son, who didn't recognize him.  Also, I think that the quest to find Silk is 
finished by helping Pig get his eyes back: Silk has erased himself from his 
normal body at the death of Hyacinth, and the divine part of Silk is trapped 
in Pig when Pig loses his eyes.  In order to get Silk's mind or soul back into 
his body, which is being kept alive by Horn's spirit, Pig must be able to get 
Silk out of himself through an eye, and the extracted Silk can be downloaded 
into Silk's body, at which point the rest of the quest is to get rid of Horn, 
which I believe happens underneath that tree at the end of OBW, and then 
eliminating the residual spirit of Horn left behind and getting through the 
guilt of erasing Horn before Silk can admit that he is indeed Silk.

The Scylla questions are very interesting to me as well - because I think that 
tomb on Urth is very important, especially if it is  the same one that 
Severian plays in as a child, where he is himself buried (or someone who he is 
a copy of).

That Aavangen question is a huge one.  Should we think she is an inhuma? No.  
A neighbor? no.  Why should we feel sorry for Beroep?  Doesn't she speak in 
the proper word order to be a true citizen of that town?  Is she a spy of the 
Mother?  (Or, as I like to think of her, one of the daughters of Scylla the 
Monster?)

Do you like my idea that Chenille has returned to Blue in a lander from green 
with the same ring that Horn used to wear?  When Jahlee feeds on the "drunk" 
woman in the tavern in Return to the Whorl, Silk mistakes her for Chenille.  I 
think Chenille is in town mourning the loss of her children, so Silk just 
barely misses her after she is preyed upon by Jahlee.  Sinew repaired the 
lander and sent Chenille on it, so the lander they may find at the end was the 
one that Horn probably died in.

One more thing: I think that the blind man that Horn mistakes for Auk in the 
story that is told at the beginning of IGJ (the one that he has to kill) is in 
fact the god Hierax.  He has fled into that man, and later we learn that  
Hierax is dead.  Where did he die?  The narrator mistook that man for Auk, who 
we know is alive because he's in a basement on Green, because at one time Auk 
was possessed for a long time by that God.  (Or have I confused him with 
Tartaros?  In any case, The Blind God has hidden himself in that man, who gets 
killed trying to take out Horn on Green).

Well, thanks again for the credit, Mooncalf.  I owe much of my theories to a 
ton of people on the list who asked the right questions at the right time 
(such as James Jordan, who actually inspired me to find a "viable" explanation 
for the vanished people with his attempt to put my miscellaneous observations 
into a chronology, whether we believe any of my ideas as a group or not).  
Thanks for taking the time to read the old stuff!
Marc Aramini

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From: Mooncalf <athenaeum at tampabay.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 18:24:19 +0000

Marc wrote:
> Also, I think that the quest to find Silk is finished by helping Pig get
his eyes back: Silk has erased himself from his normal body at the death of
Hyacinth, and the divine part of Silk is trapped in Pig when Pig loses his
eyes. In order to get Silk's mind or soul back into his body, which is being
kept alive by Horn's spirit, Pig must be able to get Silk out of himself
through an eye, and the extracted Silk can be downloaded into Silk's body,
at which point the rest of the quest is to get rid of Horn, which I believe
happens underneath that tree at the end of OBW, and then eliminating the
residual spirit of Horn left behind and getting through the guilt of erasing
Horn before Silk can admit that he is indeed Silk.

Hm, this would certainly go a long way to tying up some loose ends.
Especially as to why Horn would leave Silk's body to go into Babbie. But on
the other hand (and i apologize if i'm asking you to repeat explanations
previously made on the list) if all this is true then when did Pig lose his
eyes and how? Do you mean that everything happened just as Pig said and that
the divine part of Silk was copied into Pig after he killed a priest and
before his eyes were removed? However, hmm. I'm missing something here. I
don't understand why SilkHorn needs Pig to impart the Divine Silk. I mean,
wouldn't the Divine Silk still reside in Mainframe and couldn't SilkHorn
simply receive a download from it through a Glass or Window? Or are you
saying that the entire Divine Silk fled Mainframe and went into Pig for some
reason? If so, then looks like there was more going on behind the attack on
Pig's eyes than i first thought (as i should have known there would be).

> That Aavangen question is a huge one.  Should we think she is an inhuma?
No. A neighbor? no.  Why should we feel sorry for Beroep?  Doesn't she speak
in the proper word order to be a true citizen of that town?  Is she a spy of
the Mother?  (Or, as I like to think of her, one of the daughters of Scylla
the Monster?)

I'm not sure what she is, but your line about "proper word order" reminded
me of the scene where the Narrator talks to a bartender (i think) and tries
out some Dorp dialect on him. The bartender essentially tells him not bad,
but he got a couple things mixed up. Is Wolfe here trying to tell us that we
might need to take a closer look at not only what people are saying but how
they are saying it? Is there really a clue buried so deeply that a misplaced
verb (or similar) could reveal someone as a fake? And does this apply to
other deeply hidden things as well?

> Do you like my idea that Chenille has returned to Blue in a lander from
green with the same ring that Horn used to wear?  When Jahlee feeds on the
"drunk" woman in the tavern in Return to the Whorl, Silk mistakes her for
Chenille. I think Chenille is in town mourning the loss of her children, so
Silk just barely misses her after she is preyed upon by Jahlee. Sinew
repaired the lander and sent Chenille on it, so the lander they may find at
the end was the one that Horn probably died in.

Yes i do like that idea. Doing a quick search i see that Jahlee says on
P.155 (Hardcover) that "She'sh big woman." I had assumed that it meant her
victim was very obese. Though i see now that it could also apply to a tall
and full-figured woman like Chenille. And the last part about Sinew fixing
the lander strikes me as very plausible and very well thought out.

Okay, i've just been rereading that entire passage now (instead of simply
the part germane to Jahlee) and at the beginning i see that Auk makes a
ghostly appearance. The Narrator imagines (or sees) him sitting down on a
stool and is reminded of when Auk and Silk first met. So....Auk dies there,
the Narrator is seeing his ghost, and Chenille is mourning him? Did he die
during the fighting at the Courthouse?

Btw the connection between Jahlee and Chenille recalls the incident where
Jahlee is kicked at the end of RttW, and the Narrator mentions how it
reminded him of Auk kicking Chenille.

> One more thing: I think that the blind man that Horn mistakes for Auk in
the story that is told at the beginning of IGJ (the one that he has to kill)
is in fact the god Hierax.  He has fled into that man, and later we learn
that Hierax is dead.  Where did he die?  The narrator mistook that man for
Auk, who we know is alive because he's in a basement on Green, because at
one time Auk was possessed for a long time by that God.  (Or have I confused
him with Tartaros? In any case, The Blind God has hidden himself in that
man, who gets killed trying to take out Horn on Green).

Yes, i believe you're confusing Hierax with Tartaros. But as to the rest
there is definitely something going on with that blind man and your theory
is better than anything i can come up with. Unless it was just some relative
of Auk's. Are any of his relatives ever mentioned, or hinted at, in the LS
books?

take care,
Mooncalf

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