{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4060", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4060, "subject": "miracle of Apu-punchau, past", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-07-03T06:59:41+00:00", "last": "2003-07-04T06:27:21+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2003-07-03T06:59:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) miracle of Apu-punchau, past", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All right guys. I was writing an off-list message when a weird thought struck \nme. It has already been posited here that perhaps some strange doubling \noccurred, allowing Green to be Urth and Blue to be Ushas. I didn't really buy \nthat at the time, but a VERY strange idea struck me.\nWe have always pretty much accepted Michael Andre-Driussi's (probably valid) \nconcept of the long night in Urth of the New Sun: the sails of the starship \ncover the sun.\nFor lack of a better theory, I have always bought that wholesale. Where there \nany other possibilities? I DON'T believe what I am about to present at all \nyet, but i need to re-read Urth of the New Sun. I will say right up front \nthat most of the information presented by the hierodules and Apheta would \nprobably have to be ignored for this scheme to work, so I'm just throwing it \nout there until I can re-read what they say about the coming of the white \nfountain.\n\nThe miracle of Apu-punchau. What does he do at the end of Claw of the \nConciliator? He calls the future Severian and the whole city back in time. \nHe doesn't go forward: Severian goes back. That's the miracle of Apu-Punchau.\nTo hide the sun, he creates a huge eclipse. He swaps the moon ... for the \nfuture Urth. He calls the Urth back in time, and instead of bringing a New \nSun, Severian has simply called the whole Urth back to the past where the Sun \nis still New. He didn't bring it. He's a phony! The melting ice and the \nhigh tides and the atmospheric disturbances are caused by the dislocation of \nUrth, which screws up the orbital system and leaves us with ... Blue and \nGreen. So ... the Lune that Rudesind talks about is actually Urth ... it used \nto be smaller because it used to be a lifeless rock ... now it's Urth, a much \nlarger satellite copy called back from the future by Apu Punchau.\n\nSo ... the walls under water in the world of Blue COULD be the walls of \nNessus, but the city of the Inhumi is also Nessus. The man with four arms who \ncomes up out of the lake in OBW who is posited to be an immortal chosen of the \ngods could be Severian, and so could the man in the colorless cloak at the top \nof the high cliff on Green.\n\nThe doubling of the limbs of animals on Blue could be symbolic: everything has \nbeen doubled in the system by the miracle of Apu-Punchau. For the first time \nin a long, long, time, I can think of Severian as NOT being the New Sun, but \ninstead being someone who desperately wants to be the New Sun.\n\nHowever, I still don't know if I buy it. If there is an orbital system with \none small planet and one large planet, and you swap the small one for a planet \nof equal mass with the larger one, what happens? Anybody understand the \nphysics of that? Instability? Or collision?\n\nThe nicely solves the atmosphere of Lune problem: it doesn't need to be big \nenough to get an atmosphere. It's been replaced by something that is.\n\nWell, I don't know if I believe this at all. But there is that weird scene in \nCitadel of the Autarch where Severian feels like he is being doubled and \nleaves from his own ear into an alternate universe when he is praying to the \nPelerines, and the idea that the future of Urth is our past that is brought up \nby Wolfe in an interview, which I always thought was entirely contrary to the \nbook. I don't know. It places a lot of importance on Apu-Punchau's \"Miracle\" \nas the solution to everything instead of the white fountain, but I don't think \nit jives with the hierodules' explanations at all.\n\nJust a thought.\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2003-07-04T04:25:44+00:00", "subject": "Re:(urth) miracle of Apu-punchau, past", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From:\nmaa32 " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The miracle of Apu-punchau. What does he do at the end of Claw of the \nConciliator? He calls the future Severian and the whole city back in time. \nHe doesn't go forward: Severian goes back. That's the miracle of Apu-Punchau.\nTo hide the sun, he creates a huge eclipse. He swaps the moon ... for the \nfuture Urth. He calls the Urth back in time, and instead of bringing a New \nSun, Severian has simply called the whole Urth back to the past where the Sun \nis still New. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I don't know if I believe this at all. But there is that weird scene in \nCitadel of the Autarch where Severian feels like he is being doubled and \nleaves from his own ear into an alternate universe when he is praying to the \nPelerines, and the idea that the future of Urth is our past that is brought up \nby Wolfe in an interview, which I always thought was entirely contrary to the \nbook. I don't know. It places a lot of importance on Apu-Punchau's \"Miracle\" \nas the solution to everything instead of the white fountain, but I don't think \nit jives with the hierodules' explanations at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps the White Fountain is bright-era sun seen through the time \ntunnel sent by Apu Punchau to fetch the other-era earth. I like the \nidea, and it validates my time-twisted journey theory also, without \nmaking it a hackneyed Planet of the Apes riff." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - http://www.io.com/~jwilson\n\n\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-04T06:27:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) miracle of Apu-punchau, past", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don materializes from his past, or your future, or the future of our \npast present. Something.\n\nIt's an appealing theory Marc, but I don't think it works. For one \nthing, It is the Cumaen who facilitates Severian and Hildegrin's trip \nto Apu Punchau's time. Also, Severian (in UotNS it is Severian not AP. \n IMHO he has replaced both AP and the Conciliator, or simply assumed \ntheir function, perhaps through his own design or maybe through the \nmachinations of the Hieros. In one sense they are him and he is them, \nbut he is also something more.) does not do anything to cause the \n\"miracle\". It apears to be syncronicity. On top of that the two \noccurrences are completely separate. The incident with Severian and \nHildegrin has no part in the \"miracle\". Oh yeah, I think too that the \nCumaen called AP and his city into the future rather than sending Sev \nand Hildegrin into the past.\nJust my two cents.\n\nDon Doggett" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, July 2, 2003, at 11:59 PM, maa32 wrote:\n\nThe miracle of Apu-punchau. What does he do at the end of Claw of the\nConciliator? He calls the future Severian and the whole city back in \ntime.\nHe doesn't go forward: Severian goes back. That's the miracle of \nApu-Punchau.\nTo hide the sun, he creates a huge eclipse. He swaps the moon ... for \nthe\nfuture Urth. He calls the Urth back in time, and instead of bringing \na New\nSun, Severian has simply called the whole Urth back to the past where \nthe Sun\nis still New. He didn't bring it. He's a phony! The melting ice and \nthe\nhigh tides and the atmospheric disturbances are caused by the \ndislocation of\nUrth, which screws up the orbital system and leaves us with ... Blue \nand\nGreen. So ... the Lune that Rudesind talks about is actually Urth ... \nit used\nto be smaller because it used to be a lifeless rock ... now it's Urth, \na much\nlarger satellite copy called back from the future by Apu Punchau.\n\n\n\n-- " } ] } ] }