# miracle of Apu-punchau, past *The Urth list — 3 messages, 3 voices, 03 Jul 2003* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### maa32 *03 Jul 2003, 06:59* All right guys. I was writing an off-list message when a weird thought struck me. It has already been posited here that perhaps some strange doubling occurred, allowing Green to be Urth and Blue to be Ushas. I didn't really buy that at the time, but a VERY strange idea struck me. We have always pretty much accepted Michael Andre-Driussi's (probably valid) concept of the long night in Urth of the New Sun: the sails of the starship cover the sun. For lack of a better theory, I have always bought that wholesale. Where there any other possibilities? I DON'T believe what I am about to present at all yet, but i need to re-read Urth of the New Sun. I will say right up front that most of the information presented by the hierodules and Apheta would probably have to be ignored for this scheme to work, so I'm just throwing it out there until I can re-read what they say about the coming of the white fountain. The miracle of Apu-punchau. What does he do at the end of Claw of the Conciliator? He calls the future Severian and the whole city back in time. He doesn't go forward: Severian goes back. That's the miracle of Apu-Punchau. To hide the sun, he creates a huge eclipse. He swaps the moon ... for the future Urth. He calls the Urth back in time, and instead of bringing a New Sun, Severian has simply called the whole Urth back to the past where the Sun is still New. He didn't bring it. He's a phony! The melting ice and the high tides and the atmospheric disturbances are caused by the dislocation of Urth, which screws up the orbital system and leaves us with ... Blue and Green. So ... the Lune that Rudesind talks about is actually Urth ... it used to be smaller because it used to be a lifeless rock ... now it's Urth, a much larger satellite copy called back from the future by Apu Punchau. So ... the walls under water in the world of Blue COULD be the walls of Nessus, but the city of the Inhumi is also Nessus. The man with four arms who comes up out of the lake in OBW who is posited to be an immortal chosen of the gods could be Severian, and so could the man in the colorless cloak at the top of the high cliff on Green. The doubling of the limbs of animals on Blue could be symbolic: everything has been doubled in the system by the miracle of Apu-Punchau. For the first time in a long, long, time, I can think of Severian as NOT being the New Sun, but instead being someone who desperately wants to be the New Sun. However, I still don't know if I buy it. If there is an orbital system with one small planet and one large planet, and you swap the small one for a planet of equal mass with the larger one, what happens? Anybody understand the physics of that? Instability? Or collision? The nicely solves the atmosphere of Lune problem: it doesn't need to be big enough to get an atmosphere. It's been replaced by something that is. Well, I don't know if I believe this at all. But there is that weird scene in Citadel of the Autarch where Severian feels like he is being doubled and leaves from his own ear into an alternate universe when he is praying to the Pelerines, and the idea that the future of Urth is our past that is brought up by Wolfe in an interview, which I always thought was entirely contrary to the book. I don't know. It places a lot of importance on Apu-Punchau's "Miracle" as the solution to everything instead of the white fountain, but I don't think it jives with the hierodules' explanations at all. Just a thought. Marc Aramini --- ### Jeff Wilson *04 Jul 2003, 04:25 · follows maa32* > From: > maa32 > The miracle of Apu-punchau. What does he do at the end of Claw of the > Conciliator? He calls the future Severian and the whole city back in time. > He doesn't go forward: Severian goes back. That's the miracle of Apu-Punchau. > To hide the sun, he creates a huge eclipse. He swaps the moon ... for the > future Urth. He calls the Urth back in time, and instead of bringing a New > Sun, Severian has simply called the whole Urth back to the past where the Sun > is still New. > Well, I don't know if I believe this at all. But there is that weird scene in > Citadel of the Autarch where Severian feels like he is being doubled and > leaves from his own ear into an alternate universe when he is praying to the > Pelerines, and the idea that the future of Urth is our past that is brought up > by Wolfe in an interview, which I always thought was entirely contrary to the > book. I don't know. It places a lot of importance on Apu-Punchau's "Miracle" > as the solution to everything instead of the white fountain, but I don't think > it jives with the hierodules' explanations at all. Perhaps the White Fountain is bright-era sun seen through the time tunnel sent by Apu Punchau to fetch the other-era earth. I like the idea, and it validates my time-twisted journey theory also, without making it a hackneyed Planet of the Apes riff. ``` Jeff Wilson - http://www.io.com/~jwilson -- ``` --- ### Lisa Schaffer-Doggett *04 Jul 2003, 06:27 · follows Jeff Wilson* Don materializes from his past, or your future, or the future of our past present. Something. It's an appealing theory Marc, but I don't think it works. For one thing, It is the Cumaen who facilitates Severian and Hildegrin's trip to Apu Punchau's time. Also, Severian (in UotNS it is Severian not AP. IMHO he has replaced both AP and the Conciliator, or simply assumed their function, perhaps through his own design or maybe through the machinations of the Hieros. In one sense they are him and he is them, but he is also something more.) does not do anything to cause the "miracle". It apears to be syncronicity. On top of that the two occurrences are completely separate. The incident with Severian and Hildegrin has no part in the "miracle". Oh yeah, I think too that the Cumaen called AP and his city into the future rather than sending Sev and Hildegrin into the past. Just my two cents. Don Doggett > On Wednesday, July 2, 2003, at 11:59 PM, maa32 wrote: > > The miracle of Apu-punchau. What does he do at the end of Claw of the > Conciliator? He calls the future Severian and the whole city back in > time. > He doesn't go forward: Severian goes back. That's the miracle of > Apu-Punchau. > To hide the sun, he creates a huge eclipse. He swaps the moon ... for > the > future Urth. He calls the Urth back in time, and instead of bringing > a New > Sun, Severian has simply called the whole Urth back to the past where > the Sun > is still New. He didn't bring it. He's a phony! The melting ice and > the > high tides and the atmospheric disturbances are caused by the > dislocation of > Urth, which screws up the orbital system and leaves us with ... Blue > and > Green. So ... the Lune that Rudesind talks about is actually Urth ... > it used > to be smaller because it used to be a lifeless rock ... now it's Urth, > a much > larger satellite copy called back from the future by Apu Punchau. > > > > -- ---