{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4061", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4061, "subject": "stealing apu punchau", "messages": 12, "voices": 9, "first": "2003-07-05T07:02:03+00:00", "last": "2003-07-09T18:35:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2003-07-05T07:02:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) stealing apu punchau", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In response to Don's comments, I have a brief question about synchronicity. \nSo you don't think Severian is really the original Apu-Punchau? See, I always \nsaw him as both the original conciliator and the original Apu-Punchau (ie - if \nhe didn't go back in time, those guys would never have lived). The \ndescription of Apu Punchau in Claw led me to believe that he was doing the \ncalling, which was facilitated by the Cumean, because she calls him a \nvivimancer: somebody who calls to the living from the realms of the dead. \nWhat else qualifies somebody to be a vivimancer? Of course, I recognize that \nthe two callings would have to be at different points, and that the Cumean and \nMerryn are probably not present ... BUT there is that freaky, freaky dream of \nSeverian's in Citadel of the autarch where a big fountain and a river shows up \nand Merryn and the Cummean are screwing around (surely you remember the dream \n- it was the most confusing part of the four books for me). Maybe that is a \nclue - I should find that dream and read it over again - especially since it \ndirectly ties those witches with a flood and a waterfall.\n\nDo you think the ship causes the long night? And why did the moon get closer \nand become green?\n\nI'm just trying to make sense of things ... Don't take this idea too \nseriously - I don't hold it as dearly as I maintain that Green is Urth, or \nthat Horn is in Babbie (two convictions which I will probably take to my \ngrave). This is just testing the water.\n\nTake care.\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-05T08:16:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stealing apu punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 12:02 AM, maa32 wrote:\nIn response to Don's comments, I have a brief question about \nsynchronicity.\nSo you don't think Severian is really the original Apu-Punchau? See, \nI always\nsaw him as both the original conciliator and the original Apu-Punchau \n(ie - if\nhe didn't go back in time, those guys would never have lived)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don replies,\n\n\tWhen I first read UotNS, before I read BotNS the second time and \nbefore delving much into Graves I did think that Severian was the \noriginal Conciliator and the original Apu-Punchau. And in a sense he \nis but I think also that he isn't because as he said himself he isn't \nthe first \"Severian\" (I put this in quotation marks because I think the \noriginal Severian is in fact Ymar, the name meaning ox, which also \nmeans Aleph, which can also mean the first or the origin but that's a \nseparate argument. One I can't resist bringing up, sort of my own \nlittle \"Carthage must be destroyed!\"). I think the original \nConciliator and the original Apu-Punchau is the failed \"Severian\" \n(whoever he may be. Ymar. Ymar.) whereas our Severian is the one who \nhas been modified by the Hieros to be the New Sun. Personally, I'm \nbeginning to think that It was altogether unnecessary for our Severian \nto go back in time to fulfill a role as either of these two past \nfigures. I think it may have been a fulfillment of some dark ambition \nto assume these roles, maybe to salvage something good for himself \nsince his destiny seemed to be that of a tyrant and destroyer. Even \nthis doesn't seem to work out so well for him though. But I'm slipping \naway from my point which is simply that no, I don't strictly believe \nthat Severian is the original Apu-Punchau or the original Conciliator. \nI would rather say that he contains them both and then some." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Brandon Mason", "address": "suck_at_life at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-07-05T20:05:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stealing apu punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have always just thought that Gene Wolfe didn't\noriginally intend for the Severian that we know\n(Severian 2) to be the Conciliator and Apu-Punchau. \nHe might have intended these roles to be the first\nSeverian, or someone else entirely. But then when\nUrth of the New Sun came along I think he changed his mind." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-07-05T20:53:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stealing apu punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 2003-07-05 at 13:05, Brandon Mason wrote:\nI have always just thought that Gene Wolfe didn't\noriginally intend for the Severian that we know\n(Severian 2) to be the Conciliator and Apu-Punchau. \nHe might have intended these roles to be the first\nSeverian, or someone else entirely. But then when\nUrth of the New Sun came along I think he changed his mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think this is so.\n\nI don't think you are understanding the diffference, and the sameness,\nbetween (amongst?) the two Severians. In fact, to talk of two Severians\nis in some fashion an extended metaphor, for all that there are at \nleast two bodies that we are talking about. Severian dies several times\nin the story. In each case there is a bifurcation in his timeline. I\nsay there are several instances, and I can call to mind two right away:\nAt the duel with Agilus and on Tzadkiel's ship.\n\nOn Tzadkiel's ship (perhaps because of the special conditions which are\ninherent to the ship) he is able to close the eyes of his old body.\n\nNot everyone experiences these things. To a person who has not \nexperienced these things, it may seem that this is some kind of\nfictional strophe or analogy instead of a sober description of fact.\n\nRemember the scene in the war, where Severian watches a formation of\n'primitive' soldiers enduring bombardment, standing in formation, each\ndoing his personal magick, oblivious to whether others live or die. The\nshells can go one way or another. If they go one way, one dies. If they\ngo another way, another dies. Perhaps there in other worlds, other sets\nof them are alive and sound, or dead, or maimed. Perhaps there are a\nvery large number of these worlds.\n\nGene Wolfe was an infantryman in Korea.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-07-06T03:19:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stealing apu punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brandon Mason wrote:\nI have always just thought that Gene Wolfe didn't\noriginally intend for the Severian that we know\n(Severian 2) to be the Conciliator and Apu-Punchau.\nHe might have intended these roles to be the first\nSeverian, or someone else entirely. But then when\nUrth of the New Sun came along I think he changed his mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because I have a hard time envisioning the Claw as either a dumb object or\nas a mere \"focus\" for Severian's current/latent power, I tend to think\n(insist) that the Claw is the (hologramic, fragmentary; blood magic)\npresence of the \"first Severian\" that Severian is referring to in the\npassage: that is, the first Severian who, I believe we are told, did =not=\npossess the Claw.\n\nIn this manner, by granting/denying miraculous powers at various junctures\n(revive this dead, fail to revive that one; cast a light now; etc.), the\nfirst Severian becomes, in part, author of the Severian we see. Or\nsemi-puppetmaster.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/\n\neBay Auctions\nhttp://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=mr.sirius" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Brandon Mason", "address": "suck_at_life at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-07-06T03:32:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stealing apu punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Andre-Driussi \nwrote:\nBecause I have a hard time envisioning the Claw as\neither a dumb object or\nas a mere \"focus\" for Severian's current/latent\npower, I tend to think\n(insist) that the Claw is the (hologramic,\nfragmentary; blood magic)\npresence of the \"first Severian\" that Severian is\nreferring to in the\npassage: that is, the first Severian who, I believe\nwe are told, did =not=\npossess the Claw.\n\nIn this manner, by granting/denying miraculous\npowers at various junctures\n(revive this dead, fail to revive that one; cast a\nlight now; etc.), the\nfirst Severian becomes, in part, author of the\nSeverian we see. Or\nsemi-puppetmaster." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very interesting." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-06T20:32:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stealing apu punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 08:19 PM, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\n\nBecause I have a hard time envisioning the Claw as either a dumb \nobject or\nas a mere \"focus\" for Severian's current/latent power, I tend to think\n(insist) that the Claw is the (hologramic, fragmentary; blood magic)\npresence of the \"first Severian\" that Severian is referring to in the\npassage: that is, the first Severian who, I believe we are told, did \n=not=\npossess the Claw.\n\nIn this manner, by granting/denying miraculous powers at various \njunctures\n(revive this dead, fail to revive that one; cast a light now; etc.), \nthe\nfirst Severian becomes, in part, author of the Severian we see. Or\nsemi-puppetmaster.\n\n=mantis=" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don repies, and then replies,\n\nI agree with this in general. Regardless of whether Ymar is the first \nSeverian (and I am unshakeable in my own belief in this) the original \n\"Severian\" and his timeline were not eradicated by the coming of the \nsecond Severian (or umpteenth \"Severian\" imho). His tomb exists and \nhe's in it. He lived and he died in the same universe as our Severian \nwho has his own separate memorial and who doesn't \"die\" in the sense \nthat someone finds his body and puts it in a tomb. He dies and becomes \nan eidolon of the New Sun but it's still essentially our Severian. I \nthink that Wolfe intentionally (and brilliantly) confused this issue by \nhaving Severian (ours) say \"I am not the first Severian.\" There is no \nreason at all that the first \"Severian\" need go by that name any more \nthan the Second Coming of the Messiah be named Jesus, Joseph, Joshua or \nwhatever. \"A rose by any other name. . .\" Which leads me to wonder if \nthe rose on the Mausoleum is a bit of a pun. Probably not. As I've \nsaid before, I think there are a lot of \"Severians\" out there, little \nSeverian, the Mandragora, Palaemon, Ouen, and who knows how many others." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-07-09T02:17:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stealing apu punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because I have a hard time envisioning the Claw as either a dumb object or\nas a mere \"focus\" for Severian's current/latent power, I tend to think\n(insist) that the Claw is the (hologramic, fragmentary; blood magic)\npresence of the \"first Severian\" that Severian is referring to in the\npassage: that is, the first Severian who, I believe we are told, did =not=\npossess the Claw.\n\nIn this manner, by granting/denying miraculous powers at various junctures\n(revive this dead, fail to revive that one; cast a light now; etc.), the\nfirst Severian becomes, in part, author of the Severian we see. Or\nsemi-puppetmaster.\n\n=mantis=" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm confused. (duh! who isn't in these books?)\n Earlier Sevs did not have the power to come back to life and to \ngrant resuscitation. Our Sev did, and I've assumed this is part of why he \ncould pass the test and bring/be the New Sun. I've assumed that a part of \nthe SF aspect of the books, the Heirowhatevers prepared him as this person.\n I also assumed that the Claw was a kind of sacrament of our Sev, \nextending his power, derived from him, and hence not from any previous Sev.\n I guess I'm not understanding what you wrote. I await . . . \nenlightenment.\n\nPat. Nut." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Palumbo", "address": "enpalumb at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-09T17:00:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stealing apu punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One interesting possibility as to why Severian is successful in bringing \nthe New Sun is that he IS a professional torturer, or at least still has \nthe mind-set and sensibility of a professional torturer. I feel this is \ncrucial to his task. Bringing the New Sun requires the destruction of the \nOld Urth, and only a professional torturer would have the necessary \nequanimity. New to the list, I wonder if anyone else has mentioned that \nonly he can bring the New Sun BECAUSE he has been a torturer.\n\n--Don Palumbo" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 09:17 PM 7/8/03 -0500, James Jordan wrote:\nBecause I have a hard time envisioning the Claw as either a dumb object or\nas a mere \"focus\" for Severian's current/latent power, I tend to think\n(insist) that the Claw is the (hologramic, fragmentary; blood magic)\npresence of the \"first Severian\" that Severian is referring to in the\npassage: that is, the first Severian who, I believe we are told, did =not=\npossess the Claw.\n\nIn this manner, by granting/denying miraculous powers at various junctures\n(revive this dead, fail to revive that one; cast a light now; etc.), the\nfirst Severian becomes, in part, author of the Severian we see. Or\nsemi-puppetmaster.\n\n=mantis=" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm confused. (duh! who isn't in these books?)\n Earlier Sevs did not have the power to come back to life and to \ngrant resuscitation. Our Sev did, and I've assumed this is part of why he \ncould pass the test and bring/be the New Sun. I've assumed that a part of \nthe SF aspect of the books, the Heirowhatevers prepared him as this person.\n I also assumed that the Claw was a kind of sacrament of our Sev, \nextending his power, derived from him, and hence not from any previous Sev.\n I guess I'm not understanding what you wrote. I await . . . \nenlightenment.\n\nPat. Nut.\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-07-09T14:52:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stealing apu punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria wrote:\n Earlier Sevs did not have the power to come back to life and to\ngrant resuscitation. Our Sev did, and I've assumed this is part of why he\ncould pass the test and bring/be the New Sun. I've assumed that a part of\nthe SF aspect of the books, the Heirowhatevers prepared him as this person.\n I also assumed that the Claw was a kind of sacrament of our Sev,\nextending his power, derived from him, and hence not from any previous Sev.\n I guess I'm not understanding what you wrote. I await . . .\nenlightenment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who is that shadowy man striding always 15 years ahead of you? It is my\nfuture self, sending me hints for threading the maze that is being built up\naround me.\n\nIn TBOTNS, narrative Severian has a sense that there is a future self doing\nthings for which narrative Severian receives goods and services. He says\nthat once the first Severian passed the test, agents of Yesod came down the\ntimeline to investigate, retroactively complicating the horserace after it\nwas done.\n\nThe first Severian (\"Severian the Cruel,\" as I say) passed the test, and\nthen went on to become the Conciliator. At the moment he gave the\nblood-soaked thorn to the soldiers, the Claw was born (like a sliver or\nmini-shedding of Sev1 at that time -- like little Tzadkiel, the banished\none). About 1000 years later this item becomes a teacher of Sev2 (our\nnarrator), no less a teacher than Thecla and Dorcas and all the other \"new\"\ndetails thrown up to retroactively make the horserace more intense. The\nmore difficult maze is such that the effort to get through it really\nimproves Sev2 into the optimum version of himself, and Sev1 is overwritten.\n\nTime travel \"message to self\" loop thingie. In Heinlein you have DOOR INTO\nSUMMER. In movies you have either \"Groundhog Day,\" where the narrative\nhero is going through every loop from beginning to optimized end; or\nsomething like \"Donny Darko,\" where it is the final loop only and thus more\nlike DOOR INTO SUMMER (and Severian's Narrative).\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-07-09T17:53:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stealing apu punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is practically explicit in the text, though I don't recall if \nit's been brought up here. It also fits in neatly with the qabbalistic \nreferences Wolfe uses (though I have come to accept that these are not as \nimportant as I originally thought, at least to Wolfe). Just to play the \ndevil's advocate for a second, however, it always struck me as a little odd \nthat Severian did not seem to understand the destruction he'd be bringing \nfor such a long time. If he was to be an unconscious agent, then it wouldn't \nbe all that important that he be a torturer. I suppose it is also possible \nthat he understood but did not understand why anyone would care, which seems \na bit naive even for Sev.\n\nChris" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One interesting possibility as to why Severian is successful in bringing \nthe New Sun is that he IS a professional torturer, or at least still has \nthe mind-set and sensibility of a professional torturer. I feel this is \ncrucial to his task. Bringing the New Sun requires the destruction of the \nOld Urth, and only a professional torturer would have the necessary \nequanimity. New to the list, I wonder if anyone else has mentioned that \nonly he can bring the New Sun BECAUSE he has been a torturer.\n\n--Don Palumbo\n\nAt 09:17 PM 7/8/03 -0500, James Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Because I have a hard time envisioning the Claw as either a dumb object \nor\nas a mere \"focus\" for Severian's current/latent power, I tend to think\n(insist) that the Claw is the (hologramic, fragmentary; blood magic)\npresence of the \"first Severian\" that Severian is referring to in the\npassage: that is, the first Severian who, I believe we are told, did \n=not=\npossess the Claw.\n\nIn this manner, by granting/denying miraculous powers at various \njunctures\n(revive this dead, fail to revive that one; cast a light now; etc.), the\nfirst Severian becomes, in part, author of the Severian we see. Or\nsemi-puppetmaster.\n\n=mantis=" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm confused. (duh! who isn't in these books?)\n Earlier Sevs did not have the power to come back to life and to \ngrant resuscitation. Our Sev did, and I've assumed this is part of why he \ncould pass the test and bring/be the New Sun. I've assumed that a part of \nthe SF aspect of the books, the Heirowhatevers prepared him as this \nperson.\n I also assumed that the Claw was a kind of sacrament of our Sev, \nextending his power, derived from him, and hence not from any previous \nSev.\n I guess I'm not understanding what you wrote. I await . . . \nenlightenment.\n\nPat. Nut.\n\n\n--" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "katbarx at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-07-09T18:35:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) stealing apu punchau", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis having written:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Time travel \"message to self\" loop thingie. In Heinlein you have DOOR INTO\nSUMMER. In movies you have either \"Groundhog Day,\" where the narrative\nhero is going through every loop from beginning to optimized end; or\nsomething like \"Donny Darko,\" where it is the final loop only and thus more\nlike DOOR INTO SUMMER (and Severian's Narrative)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, the best example of this I've seen is -- surprisingly -- the \"Bill \nand\nTed\" movies. Both movies have sequences that involve the boys succeeding\nbecause of things they haven't done yet; the escape from jail scene in the\nfirst one, and the marvellous final fight with the bad guy in the second \none,\nwhere they take turns explaining what they are going to do to forestall the\neffects of what the other one has just said he'll do -- ending with the \nobvious\npoint that only the winner will actually get to carry out his plans." } ] } ] }