Subject: (urth) stealing apu punchau

From: maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 07:02:03 +0000

In response to Don's comments, I have a brief question about synchronicity.  
So you don't think Severian is really the original Apu-Punchau?  See, I always 
saw him as both the original conciliator and the original Apu-Punchau (ie - if 
he didn't go back in time, those guys would never have lived).  The 
description of Apu Punchau in Claw led me to believe that he was doing the 
calling, which was facilitated by the Cumean, because she calls him a 
vivimancer: somebody who calls to the living from the realms of the dead.  
What else qualifies somebody to be a vivimancer?  Of course, I recognize that 
the two callings would have to be at different points, and that the Cumean and 
Merryn are probably not present ... BUT there is that freaky, freaky dream of 
Severian's in Citadel of the autarch where a big fountain and a river shows up 
and Merryn and the Cummean are screwing around (surely you remember the dream 
- it was the most confusing part of the four books for me).  Maybe that is a 
clue - I should find that dream and read it over again - especially since it 
directly ties those witches with a flood and a waterfall.

Do you think the ship causes the long night?  And why did the moon get closer 
and become green?

I'm just trying to make sense of things ...  Don't take this idea too 
seriously - I don't hold it as dearly as I maintain that Green is Urth, or 
that Horn is in Babbie (two convictions which I will probably take to my 
grave).  This is just testing the water.

Take care.
Marc Aramini

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From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 08:16:02 +0000

On Saturday, July 5, 2003, at 12:02 AM, maa32 wrote:

> he didn't go back in time, those guys would never have lived).

Don replies,

	When I first read UotNS, before I read BotNS the second time and 
before delving much into Graves I did think that Severian was the 
original Conciliator and the original Apu-Punchau.  And in a sense he 
is but I think also that he isn't because as he said himself he isn't 
the first "Severian" (I put this in quotation marks because I think the 
original Severian is in fact Ymar, the name meaning ox, which also 
means Aleph, which can also mean the first or the origin but that's a 
separate argument.  One I can't resist bringing up, sort of my own 
little "Carthage must be destroyed!").  I think the original 
Conciliator and the original Apu-Punchau is the failed "Severian" 
(whoever he may be. Ymar. Ymar.) whereas our Severian is the one who 
has been modified by the Hieros to be the New Sun.  Personally, I'm 
beginning to think that It was altogether unnecessary for our Severian 
to go back in time to fulfill a role as either of these two past 
figures.  I think it may have been a fulfillment of some dark ambition 
to assume these roles, maybe to salvage something good for himself 
since his destiny seemed to be that of a tyrant and destroyer.  Even 
this doesn't seem to work out so well for him though.  But I'm slipping 
away from my point which is simply that no, I don't strictly believe 
that Severian is the original Apu-Punchau or the original Conciliator.  
I would rather say that he contains them both and then some.

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From: Brandon Mason <suck_at_life at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 20:05:32 +0000

I have always just thought that Gene Wolfe didn't
originally intend for the Severian that we know
(Severian 2) to be the Conciliator and Apu-Punchau. 
He might have intended these roles to be the first
Severian, or someone else entirely.  But then when
Urth of the New Sun came along I think he changed his mind.

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 20:53:14 +0000

> Urth of the New Sun came along I think he changed his mind.

I don't think this is so.

I don't think you are understanding the diffference, and the sameness,
between (amongst?) the two Severians. In fact, to talk of two Severians
is in some fashion an extended metaphor, for all that there are at 
least two bodies that we are talking about. Severian dies several times
in the story. In each case there is a bifurcation in his timeline. I
say there are several instances, and I can call to mind two right away:
At the duel with Agilus and on Tzadkiel's ship.

On Tzadkiel's ship (perhaps because of the special conditions which are
inherent to the ship) he is able to close the eyes of his old body.

Not everyone experiences these things. To a person who has not 
experienced these things, it may seem that this is some kind of
fictional strophe or analogy instead of a sober description of fact.

Remember the scene in the war, where Severian watches a formation of
'primitive' soldiers enduring bombardment, standing in formation, each
doing his personal magick, oblivious to whether others live or die. The
shells can go one way or another. If they go one way, one dies. If they
go another way, another dies. Perhaps there in other worlds, other sets
of them are alive and sound, or dead, or maimed. Perhaps there are a
very large number of these worlds.

Gene Wolfe was an infantryman in Korea.

.

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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 03:19:28 +0000

>Urth of the New Sun came along I think he changed his mind.

Because I have a hard time envisioning the Claw as either a dumb object or
as a mere "focus" for Severian's current/latent power, I tend to think
(insist) that the Claw is the (hologramic, fragmentary; blood magic)
presence of the "first Severian" that Severian is referring to in the
passage: that is, the first Severian who, I believe we are told, did =not=
possess the Claw.

In this manner, by granting/denying miraculous powers at various junctures
(revive this dead, fail to revive that one; cast a light now; etc.), the
first Severian becomes, in part, author of the Severian we see.  Or
semi-puppetmaster.

=mantis=

Sirius Fiction
booklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley
http://www.siriusfiction.com/

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From: Brandon Mason <suck_at_life at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 03:32:43 +0000

--- Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
> first Severian becomes, in part, author of the

Very interesting.

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From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:32:43 +0000

> first Severian becomes, in part, author of the Severian we see.  Or

Don repies, and then replies,

I agree with this in general.  Regardless of whether Ymar is the first 
Severian (and I am unshakeable in my own belief in this) the original 
"Severian" and his timeline were not eradicated by the coming of the 
second Severian (or umpteenth "Severian" imho).  His tomb exists and 
he's in it.  He lived and he died in the same universe as our Severian 
who has his own separate memorial and who doesn't "die" in the sense 
that someone finds his body and puts it in a tomb.  He dies and becomes 
an eidolon of the New Sun but it's still essentially our Severian.  I 
think that Wolfe intentionally (and brilliantly) confused this issue by 
having Severian (ours) say "I am not the first Severian."  There is no 
reason at all that the first "Severian" need go by that name any more 
than the Second Coming of the Messiah be named Jesus, Joseph, Joshua or 
whatever.  "A rose by any other name. . ."  Which leads me to wonder if 
the rose on the Mausoleum is a bit of a pun.  Probably not.  As I've 
said before, I think there are a lot of "Severians" out there, little 
Severian, the Mandragora, Palaemon, Ouen, and who knows how many others.

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 02:17:32 +0000

>first Severian becomes, in part, author of the Severian we see.  Or

I'm confused. (duh! who isn't in these books?)
         Earlier Sevs did not have the  power to come back to life and to 
grant resuscitation. Our Sev did, and I've assumed this is part of why he 
could pass the test and bring/be the New Sun. I've assumed that a part of 
the SF aspect of the books, the Heirowhatevers prepared him as this person.
         I also assumed that the Claw was a kind of sacrament of our Sev, 
extending his power, derived from him, and hence not from any previous Sev.
         I guess I'm not understanding what you wrote. I await . . . 
enlightenment.

Pat. Nut.

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From: Don Palumbo <enpalumb at earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 17:00:09 +0000

One interesting possibility as to why Severian is successful in bringing 
the New Sun is that he IS a professional torturer, or at least still has 
the mind-set and sensibility of a professional torturer.  I feel this is 
crucial to his task.  Bringing the New Sun requires the destruction of the 
Old Urth, and only a professional torturer would have the necessary 
equanimity.  New to the list, I wonder if anyone else has mentioned that 
only he can bring the New Sun BECAUSE he has been a torturer.

--Don Palumbo

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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 14:52:46 +0000

>         I guess I'm not understanding what you wrote. I await . . .

Who is that shadowy man striding always 15 years ahead of you?  It is my
future self, sending me hints for threading the maze that is being built up
around me.

In TBOTNS, narrative Severian has a sense that there is a future self doing
things for which narrative Severian receives goods and services.  He says
that once the first Severian passed the test, agents of Yesod came down the
timeline to investigate, retroactively complicating the horserace after it
was done.

The first Severian ("Severian the Cruel," as I say) passed the test, and
then went on to become the Conciliator.  At the moment he gave the
blood-soaked thorn to the soldiers, the Claw was born (like a sliver or
mini-shedding of Sev1 at that time -- like little Tzadkiel, the banished
one).  About 1000 years later this item becomes a teacher of Sev2 (our
narrator), no less a teacher than Thecla and Dorcas and all the other "new"
details thrown up to retroactively make the horserace more intense.  The
more difficult maze is such that the effort to get through it really
improves Sev2 into the optimum version of himself, and Sev1 is overwritten.

Time travel "message to self" loop thingie.  In Heinlein you have DOOR INTO
SUMMER.  In movies you have either "Groundhog Day," where the narrative
hero is going through every loop from beginning to optimized end; or
something like "Donny Darko," where it is the final loop only and thus more
like DOOR INTO SUMMER (and Severian's Narrative).

=mantis=

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 17:53:24 +0000

I think this is practically explicit in the text, though I don't recall if 
it's been brought up here. It also fits in neatly with the qabbalistic 
references Wolfe uses (though I have come to accept that these are not as 
important as I originally thought, at least to Wolfe). Just to play the 
devil's advocate for a second, however, it always struck me as a little odd 
that Severian did not seem to understand the destruction he'd be bringing 
for such a long time. If he was to be an unconscious agent, then it wouldn't 
be all that important that he be a torturer. I suppose it is also possible 
that he understood but did not understand why anyone would care, which seems 
a bit naive even for Sev.

Chris

>>         I guess I'm not understanding what you wrote. I await . . . 

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <katbarx at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 18:35:15 +0000

>like DOOR INTO SUMMER (and Severian's Narrative).

Actually, the best example of this I've seen is -- surprisingly -- the "Bill 
and
Ted" movies. Both movies have sequences that involve the boys succeeding
because of things they haven't done yet; the escape from jail scene in the
first one, and the marvellous final fight with the bad guy in the second 
one,
where they take turns explaining what they are going to do to forestall the
effects of what the other one has just said he'll do -- ending with the 
obvious
point that only the winner will actually get to carry out his plans.

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