{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4065", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4065, "subject": "Sev's skull and spring constellations", "messages": 7, "voices": 7, "first": "2003-07-07T05:53:28+00:00", "last": "2003-07-09T07:36:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2003-07-07T05:53:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's skull and spring constellations", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The recent discussion has prompted me to look once again at the end of Urth of \nthe New Sun. I think we can all agree that the skull that Severian finds at \nthe bottom of the lake when he goes diving during the flood is the skull of a \nSeverian who did in fact drown at the opening scene of the book, where the \n\"new\" Severian takes up his narrative. Just as the narrator of Urth of the \nNew Sun is different than the narrator of Book of the New Sun, I always \nthought that the narrator of Book of the New Sun was qualitatively different \nthan the boy who died in the river. Thinking about how Severian could be \ndrowned and dead, and still revived and not be an eidolon all along, is a bit \nconfusing to those (like me) who don't understand the full capabilities of the \nhierodules. Notice that they definitely, absolutely, have the power to travel \nback in time.\n\nNow I was wondering about the very odd \"cross and the Unicorn\" constellations \nthat appear in the sky when the miracle of Apu-Punchau occurs and the long \nnight of Urth heralds in Severian's identity as Sun God. In the final \npost-script to his series, entitled \"The Miracle of Apu-Punchau\", Wolfe seems \nto be inviting the reader to come up with a viable large \"opaque\" object to \ncover the sun so that the long night can happen. Then he goes on to say that \nthe winter constellations that should appear over the stone town are \ninexplicably replaced by spring constellations (the cross and the unicorn, I \npresume). I know that, at least in Asian mythology, the unicorn symbolizes \neither the birth or the death of a great man. (the cross is obvious)\n\nMooncalf recently brought my attention to recent studies on solar sails and \nhow they might be contiguous with mirrors. So, are we to believe that the \nsolar sails reflected constellations that were actually on the other side of \nthe Urth, or are we to believe that a rift in the universe allowed the \nunexpected constellations to appear? What else could have come through that \nrift? Notice that at the very end of the chapter in which the long night \noccurs, Severian says that his shadow falls across the sun and Urth. He has \nbeen somewhat wary of calling the world of the past Urth, but I need to read \nthe whole thing again more carefully. Also, remember the science of father \nInire's mirrors: reflected light that leaves the universe and re-enters at \nanother point must create an object to reflect that light at its new location.\n Remember all that weird blue glass on the planet Blue? The first time I read \nit, it reminded me of the claw of the conciliator. Especially knowing that \nthe material which is actually the claw is a part of a bush.\n\nIf we think of the claw as a proto-Severian, or a world within a world, then \nperhaps light that passes through the claw and leaves the universe for \nwhatever reason can indeed create something ... larger when it re-enters.\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Spectacled Bear", "address": "spectacled.bear at pobox.com" }, "date": "2003-07-07T12:36:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sev's skull and spring constellations", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 06:53 2003-07-07, maa32 wrote:\nMooncalf recently brought my attention to recent studies on solar sails and \nhow they might be contiguous with mirrors. So, are we to believe that the \nsolar sails reflected constellations that were actually on the other side of \nthe Urth, or are we to believe that a rift in the universe allowed the \nunexpected constellations to appear? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's much simpler than that. If you hide the sun somehow (it doesn't\nmatter how) then you will see the stars that are normally obscured by\nits glare. If the sun stays hidden, you would see a succession of different\nconstellations rise and set. By the normal time of sunset, the Earth would\nhave rotated to face the usual stars for the season.\n\nSpectacled Bear." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matt DeLuca", "address": "archdragon at wotmania.com" }, "date": "2003-07-07T20:31:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sev's skull and spring constellations", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "huh?\n\nBTW? Can someone please recap what the Miracle of Apu-Punchau was?\n\n_____________________________________________________________\nhttp://wotmania.com\nfeed your wot addiction" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Brandon Mason", "address": "suck_at_life at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-07-08T05:44:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sev's skull and spring constellations", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Matt DeLuca wrote:\n\nhuh?\n \nBTW? Can someone please recap what the Miracle of\nApu-Punchau was?\n\nEssentially, the Autocthons in the Stone Town in the\npast (before Severian becomes or meets Apu Punchau)\nare about to kill Severian, but they spare his life\nbecause the rising of the sun is delayed while he is\ntelling them his story. I think I got that right. \nSomeone correct me if I am wrong. Thus, the miracle\nof Apu Punchau. The afterword by Gene Wolfe explains\nthat the miracle is possibly an eclipse of some sort,\nand leaves the reader to speculate on how it happened.\n A lot of people think the Heirodules ship blocked out\nthe sun, but I am sure there are tons of other\ntheories. \n\nAnd I agree with whoever said that the skull that\nSeverian finds while walking underwater is his own. \nConsidering how many times Severian dies, its my\nopinion that Wolfe wouldn't have even included the\ndetail about Severian finding the skull unless it was\nfor sure his own." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2003-07-08T03:48:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sev's skull and spring constellations", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "huh?\n\nBTW? Can someone please recap what the Miracle of Apu-Punchau was?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The miracle of Apu-Punchau was an eclipse. Or a supposed eclipse; actually,\nas Wolfe makes (almost) clear in his afterword, it was the very large\nstarship Sanru passing across the sun. This \"miracle\" echoes the one in Mark\nTwain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court--which was a genuine\neclipse. Wolfe is not so crass as to copy.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Palumbo", "address": "enpalumb at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-08T20:55:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sev's skull and spring constellations", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\nOf course, Wolfe is crass enough to copy, but he does it with such\nincredible style and intelligence, and never without giving it a twist of\nhis own.  BNS has Joseph Campbell's monomyth coming out its mouth,\nears, nose, throat, and all its pores (and then just does it all over\nagain in URS); but BNS is likely the most compelling and clever (and\neasily the most elaborate) reworking of this formula in SF, which is\nsaying a lot, because some of the other SF reworkings (all six original\nDUNE books, THE STARS MY DESTINATION, and FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON among\nthem) are among the best SF novels ever written.  [btw, is this a\ncoincidence? I don't think so.]\n\nI am about to begin writing a long scholarly article on this--and\nprobably won't be done writing it until the end of September or\nlater.  While it will be published in print, is there some way to\neventually post it on this site (which I just joined recently) for anyone\non this list who is interested to look at (and, hopefully, add their 2\ncents worth to)?\n\n--Don Palumbo" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:48 PM 7/7/03 -0400, Alice K. Turner wrote:\nhuh?\n\nBTW? Can someone please recap what the Miracle of Apu-Punchau\nwas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The miracle of Apu-Punchau was an eclipse. Or a supposed eclipse;\nactually,\nas Wolfe makes (almost) clear in his afterword, it was the very\nlarge\nstarship Sanru passing across the sun. This \"miracle\" echoes\nthe one in Mark\nTwain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court--which was a\ngenuine\neclipse. Wolfe is not so crass as to copy.\n\n-alga" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.urth.net/\nTo unsubscribe: send \"unsubscribe\" to urth-request at urth.net\n\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-09T07:36:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sev's skull and spring constellations", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, July 8, 2003, at 01:55 PM, Don Palumbo wrote:\nOf course, Wolfeis crass enough to copy, but he does it with such \nincredible style and intelligence, and never without giving it a twist \nof his own.  BNS has Joseph Campbell's monomyth coming out its mouth, \nears, nose, throat, and all its pores (and then just does it all over \nagain in URS); but BNS is likely the most compelling and clever (and \neasily the most elaborate) reworking of this formula in SF, which is \nsaying a lot, because some of the other SF reworkings (all six \noriginal DUNE books, THE STARS MY DESTINATION, and FLOWERS FOR \nALGERNON among them) are among the best SF novels ever written.  [btw, \nis this a coincidence? I don't think so.]\n\nI am about to begin writing a long scholarly article on this--and \nprobably won't be done writing it until the end of September or \nlater.  While it will be published in print, is there some way to \neventually post it on this site (which I just joined recently) for \nanyone on this list who is interested to look at (and, hopefully, add \ntheir 2 cents worth to)?\n\n--Don Palumbo" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don (I am not the first Don) replies,\n\nAll writing is copying of some sort, and crassness isn't always a \nshortcoming. You could submit your article to Ultan's Library. I \ndon't have the url but you can google it. Or maybe link it to the \nLupine Nuncio. Again you must google." } ] } ] }