Severian, memory, alzabo
The Urth list — 8 messages, 5 voices, 09 Jul 2003
https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4073
Chris offered:
7 quoted lines
As a final note (I have rambled too long), I've also
wondered if perhaps Severian had a normal memory,
but came to believe that his memory seemed perfect
to him because of the recursive-alzabo-effect I was
talking about earlier. Even receiving partial
memories an infinite number of times would lead to
perfect recall, but only of those memories.
I've wondered the same thing, especially since what
bothered me about the alzabo effect has always been
that I couldn't figure out if Severian only gains, for
example, the memories that Thecla remembered with her
"imperfect" (i.e., normal) memory or if he gained
all of her experiences which might have somehow been
"in" the part of her that he eats. That led me to some
wilder speculation towards wondering if the tradition
of the Autarch eating the previous Autarch began with
the first Ymar who was HIMSELF Severian (with, again,
a perfect memory). The only way, perhaps, for one
"incarnation" to share all of the memories of the
previous one would be to "ingest" those memories
through the Alzabo.
I'm not sure, tho, that the alzabo itself is
responsible for his supposedly perfect memory since
Severian speaks as if he perfeclty remembers the
events before his first experience with the alzabo in
Vodalu's forest.
Another piece of Severian-memory (or lack thereof)
that bothers me is how he gets lost in the tunnels
before the Atrium of Time. Granted it's dark and
confusing, but couldn't someone with a perfect memory
stop and retrace the whole thing?
Craig
↳ follows, by subject match Craig Brewer
As a few people have said this, it may be worth pointing out that the Autarchs do not use the alzebo drug to pass on their memories. When the Autarch has Severian kill him and eat his forebrain, he points out specifically that the drug in the vial around his neck is not taken from the alzebo, but is a rarer, better, and more powerful drug.
--Don Palumbo
44 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
At 09:13 PM 7/8/03 -0700, Craig Brewer wrote:
Chris offered:
As a final note (I have rambled too long), I've also
wondered if perhaps Severian had a normal memory,
but came to believe that his memory seemed perfect
to him because of the recursive-alzabo-effect I was
talking about earlier. Even receiving partial
memories an infinite number of times would lead to
perfect recall, but only of those memories.
I've wondered the same thing, especially since what
bothered me about the alzabo effect has always been
that I couldn't figure out if Severian only gains, for
example, the memories that Thecla remembered with her
"imperfect" (i.e., normal) memory or if he gained
all of her experiences which might have somehow been
"in" the part of her that he eats. That led me to some
wilder speculation towards wondering if the tradition
of the Autarch eating the previous Autarch began with
the first Ymar who was HIMSELF Severian (with, again,
a perfect memory). The only way, perhaps, for one
"incarnation" to share all of the memories of the
previous one would be to "ingest" those memories
through the Alzabo.
I'm not sure, tho, that the alzabo itself is
responsible for his supposedly perfect memory since
Severian speaks as if he perfeclty remembers the
events before his first experience with the alzabo in
Vodalu's forest.
Another piece of Severian-memory (or lack thereof)
that bothers me is how he gets lost in the tunnels
before the Atrium of Time. Granted it's dark and
confusing, but couldn't someone with a perfect memory
stop and retrace the whole thing?
Craig
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--
↳ follows, by subject match Don Palumbo
4 quoted lines
At 12:05 PM 7/9/2003, you wrote:
As a few people have said this, it may be worth pointing out that the Autarchs do not use the alzebo drug to pass on their memories. When the Autarch has Severian kill him and eat his forebrain, he points out specifically that the drug in the vial around his neck is not taken from the alzebo, but is a rarer, better, and more powerful drug.
--Don Palumbo
And Sev does not just get their memories, any more than he just got
Thecla's. They come to life in him. This is part of how he passes the trial.
I originally thought this was nod to Casher O'Neill in *On the
Sand Planet* by C. Smith, who passes trials with the same benefit as gained in On the Wind Planet, but Wolfe told me Smith was not an influence on him.
Nutria
↳ follows, by subject match James Jordan
This is true, though the fact that they come to life within him seems unique to Sev (regardless of which concoction he uses) rather than characteristic of the autarch's drug. If I had to guess I would say that the difference between the drugs is that for a normal person the memories gained from the alzabo fade quickly and are lost, whereas the autarchs must retain more of them and on more of a permanent basis. With Sev this difference doesn't seem to be so large.
Chris
11 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
At 12:05 PM 7/9/2003, you wrote:
As a few people have said this, it may be worth pointing out that the Autarchs do not use the alzebo drug to pass on their memories. When the Autarch has Severian kill him and eat his forebrain, he points out specifically that the drug in the vial around his neck is not taken from the alzebo, but is a rarer, better, and more powerful drug.
--Don Palumbo
And Sev does not just get their memories, any more than he just got Thecla's. They come to life in him. This is part of how he passes the trial.
I originally thought this was nod to Casher O'Neill in *On the
Sand Planet* by C. Smith, who passes trials with the same benefit as gained in On the Wind Planet, but Wolfe told me Smith was not an influence on him.
Nutria
--
↳ follows, by subject match Chris
2 quoted lines
On 09/07/2003 19:09:22 Chris wrote:
This is true, though the fact that they come to life within him seems unique to Sev (regardless of which concoction he uses) rather than characteristic of the autarch's drug. If I had to guess I would say that the difference between the drugs is that for a normal person the memories gained from the alzabo fade quickly and are lost, whereas the autarchs must retain more of them and on more of a permanent basis. With Sev this difference doesn't seem to be so large.
I can't recall any clue that suggests Sev's experience with autarchical inheritance was different from his predecessors - and he has his predecessors memories for guidance and comparison.
The other occasion when Sev eats of Thecla he (and we) have the warning that sharing those whom one knew well and were emotionally tied to already had dangers. Did not Thea avoid the experince for this reason?
Matthew
↳ follows, by subject match matthew.malthouse
<html>
Nutria,
Wolfe is an engaging and surprisingly modest guy. I was once
talking with him after having read only The Shadow of the Torturer
(this must be at least 15 years ago), and I told him how much I liked it and how I was looking forward to reading the rest of the BNS, and he was quite eager to "save me the trouble" and wanted to tell me how it all came out on the spot. I insisted on not being told, but in retrospect it would have been interesting to have heard his off-the-cuff version.
--Don Palumbo
At 10:45 AM 7/9/03 -0500, James Jordan wrote:
At 12:05 PM 7/9/2003, you wrote:
As a few people have said this, it may be
worth pointing out that the Autarchs do not use the alzebo drug to pass on their memories. When the Autarch has Severian kill him and eat his forebrain, he points out specifically that the drug in the vial around his neck is not taken from the alzebo, but is a rarer, better, and more powerful drug.
--Don Palumbo
And Sev does not just get their memories, any more than he just got Thecla's. They come to life in him. This is part of how he passes the trial.
I originally thought this was
nod to Casher O'Neill in On the Sand Planet by C. Smith, who passes trials with the same benefit as gained in On the Wind Planet, but Wolfe told me Smith was not an influence on him.
Nutria
↳ follows, by subject match Don Palumbo
4 quoted lines
At 04:17 AM 7/10/2003, you wrote:
I can't recall any clue that suggests Sev's experience with autarchical inheritance was different from his predecessors - and he has his predecessors memories for guidance and comparison.
Matthew
I assume you refer to the possibility that the previous autarchs are
brought back to life in Sev. I don't know of an explicit clue either, but Wolfe has said that he "only says things one time" in these books. The fact that Thecla comes to life inside Sev seems to me to be the only clue we need.
Of course, since eating the Autarch is not by alzabo juice, there may be a difference. Yet, both of these things link to the Christian Eucharist, which is not merely symbolic (for Wolfe anyway), but has to do with "Christ living in you."
Hence, if they did not come back to life inside Sev, I'd want to know why not.
Nutria
↳ follows, by subject match James Jordan
I do not know where to find it exactly, but I believe I got this impression from a passage that indicates that the voices/memories of the autarchs from the most distant past are more faint. There could be other explanations, I suppose, but I read it as an indication that a certain amount was lost on each passing generation.
With Severian (in theory) there would be no loss.
But in any event yes, this is probably to be inferred from the fact that Sev's experience with Thecla was distinctly different, with a certain amount of rationalization thrown in. It seems natural, and I can't think of any reason to think otherwise.
Civet
11 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
At 04:17 AM 7/10/2003, you wrote:
I can't recall any clue that suggests Sev's experience with autarchical inheritance was different from his predecessors - and he has his predecessors memories for guidance and comparison.
Matthew
I assume you refer to the possibility that the previous autarchs are brought back to life in Sev. I don't know of an explicit clue either, but Wolfe has said that he "only says things one time" in these books. The fact that Thecla comes to life inside Sev seems to me to be the only clue we need.
Of course, since eating the Autarch is not by alzabo juice, there may be a difference. Yet, both of these things link to the Christian Eucharist, which is not merely symbolic (for Wolfe anyway), but has to do with "Christ living in you."
Hence, if they did not come back to life inside Sev, I'd want to know why not.
Nutria
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