{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4073", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4073, "subject": "Severian, memory, alzabo", "messages": 8, "voices": 5, "first": "2003-07-09T04:13:16+00:00", "last": "2003-07-10T19:46:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2003-07-09T04:13:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian, memory, alzabo", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris offered:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As a final note (I have rambled too long), I've also\nwondered if perhaps Severian had a normal memory, \nbut came to believe that his memory seemed perfect\nto him because of the recursive-alzabo-effect I was\ntalking about earlier. Even receiving partial\nmemories an infinite number of times would lead to\nperfect recall, but only of *those* memories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've wondered the same thing, especially since what\nbothered me about the alzabo effect has always been\nthat I couldn't figure out if Severian only gains, for\nexample, the memories that Thecla remembered with her\n\"imperfect\" (i.e., normal) memory or if he gained\n*all* of her experiences which might have somehow been\n\"in\" the part of her that he eats. That led me to some\nwilder speculation towards wondering if the tradition\nof the Autarch eating the previous Autarch began with\nthe first Ymar who was HIMSELF Severian (with, again,\na perfect memory). The only way, perhaps, for one\n\"incarnation\" to share all of the memories of the\nprevious one would be to \"ingest\" those memories\nthrough the Alzabo.\n\nI'm not sure, tho, that the alzabo itself is\nresponsible for his supposedly perfect memory since\nSeverian speaks as if he perfeclty remembers the\nevents before his first experience with the alzabo in\nVodalu's forest. \n\nAnother piece of Severian-memory (or lack thereof)\nthat bothers me is how he gets lost in the tunnels\nbefore the Atrium of Time. Granted it's dark and\nconfusing, but couldn't someone with a perfect memory\nstop and retrace the whole thing?\n\nCraig" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Palumbo", "address": "enpalumb at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-09T17:05:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian, memory, alzabo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As a few people have said this, it may be worth pointing out that the \nAutarchs do not use the alzebo drug to pass on their memories. When the \nAutarch has Severian kill him and eat his forebrain, he points out \nspecifically that the drug in the vial around his neck is not taken from \nthe alzebo, but is a rarer, better, and more powerful drug.\n\n--Don Palumbo" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:13 PM 7/8/03 -0700, Craig Brewer wrote:\nChris offered:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As a final note (I have rambled too long), I've also\nwondered if perhaps Severian had a normal memory,\nbut came to believe that his memory seemed perfect\nto him because of the recursive-alzabo-effect I was\ntalking about earlier. Even receiving partial\nmemories an infinite number of times would lead to\nperfect recall, but only of *those* memories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've wondered the same thing, especially since what\nbothered me about the alzabo effect has always been\nthat I couldn't figure out if Severian only gains, for\nexample, the memories that Thecla remembered with her\n\"imperfect\" (i.e., normal) memory or if he gained\n*all* of her experiences which might have somehow been\n\"in\" the part of her that he eats. That led me to some\nwilder speculation towards wondering if the tradition\nof the Autarch eating the previous Autarch began with\nthe first Ymar who was HIMSELF Severian (with, again,\na perfect memory). The only way, perhaps, for one\n\"incarnation\" to share all of the memories of the\nprevious one would be to \"ingest\" those memories\nthrough the Alzabo.\n\nI'm not sure, tho, that the alzabo itself is\nresponsible for his supposedly perfect memory since\nSeverian speaks as if he perfeclty remembers the\nevents before his first experience with the alzabo in\nVodalu's forest.\n\nAnother piece of Severian-memory (or lack thereof)\nthat bothers me is how he gets lost in the tunnels\nbefore the Atrium of Time. Granted it's dark and\nconfusing, but couldn't someone with a perfect memory\nstop and retrace the whole thing?\n\nCraig\n\n__________________________________\nDo you Yahoo!?\nSBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!\nhttp://sbc.yahoo.com\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-07-09T15:45:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian, memory, alzabo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:05 PM 7/9/2003, you wrote:\nAs a few people have said this, it may be worth pointing out that the \nAutarchs do not use the alzebo drug to pass on their memories. When the \nAutarch has Severian kill him and eat his forebrain, he points out \nspecifically that the drug in the vial around his neck is not taken from \nthe alzebo, but is a rarer, better, and more powerful drug.\n\n--Don Palumbo" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Sev does not just get their memories, any more than he just got \nThecla's. They come to life in him. This is part of how he passes the trial.\n I originally thought this was nod to Casher O'Neill in *On the \nSand Planet* by C. Smith, who passes trials with the same benefit as gained \nin *On the Wind Planet,* but Wolfe told me Smith was not an influence on him.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-07-09T18:09:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian, memory, alzabo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is true, though the fact that they come to life within him seems unique \nto Sev (regardless of which concoction he uses) rather than characteristic \nof the autarch's drug. If I had to guess I would say that the difference \nbetween the drugs is that *for a normal person* the memories gained from the \nalzabo fade quickly and are lost, whereas the autarchs must retain more of \nthem and on more of a permanent basis. With Sev this difference doesn't seem \nto be so large.\n\nChris" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:05 PM 7/9/2003, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As a few people have said this, it may be worth pointing out that the \nAutarchs do not use the alzebo drug to pass on their memories. When the \nAutarch has Severian kill him and eat his forebrain, he points out \nspecifically that the drug in the vial around his neck is not taken from \nthe alzebo, but is a rarer, better, and more powerful drug.\n\n--Don Palumbo" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Sev does not just get their memories, any more than he just got \nThecla's. They come to life in him. This is part of how he passes the \ntrial.\n I originally thought this was nod to Casher O'Neill in *On the \nSand Planet* by C. Smith, who passes trials with the same benefit as gained \nin *On the Wind Planet,* but Wolfe told me Smith was not an influence on \nhim.\n\nNutria\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-07-10T09:17:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian, memory, alzabo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 09/07/2003 19:09:22 Chris wrote:\nThis is true, though the fact that they come to life within him seems \nunique\nto Sev (regardless of which concoction he uses) rather than \ncharacteristic\nof the autarch's drug. If I had to guess I would say that the difference\nbetween the drugs is that *for a normal person* the memories gained from \nthe\nalzabo fade quickly and are lost, whereas the autarchs must retain more \nof\nthem and on more of a permanent basis. With Sev this difference doesn't \nseem\nto be so large." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't recall any clue that suggests Sev's experience with autarchical \ninheritance was different from his predecessors - and he has his \npredecessors memories for guidance and comparison.\n\nThe other occasion when Sev eats of Thecla he (and we) have the warning \nthat sharing those whom one knew well and were emotionally tied to already \nhad dangers. Did not Thea avoid the experince for this reason?\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Palumbo", "address": "enpalumb at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-10T16:47:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian, memory, alzabo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\nNutria,\n\nWolfe is an engaging and surprisingly modest guy.  I was once\ntalking with him after having read only The Shadow of the Torturer\n(this must be at least 15 years ago), and I told him how much I liked it\nand how I was looking forward to reading the rest of the BNS, and he was\nquite eager to \"save me the trouble\" and wanted to tell me how\nit all came out on the spot.  I insisted on not being told, but in\nretrospect it would have been interesting to have heard his off-the-cuff\nversion.\n\n--Don Palumbo\n\nAt 10:45 AM 7/9/03 -0500, James Jordan wrote:\nAt 12:05 PM 7/9/2003, you wrote:\nAs a few people have said this, it may be\nworth pointing out that the Autarchs do not use the alzebo drug to pass\non their memories.  When the Autarch has Severian kill him and eat\nhis forebrain, he points out specifically that the drug in the vial\naround his neck is not taken from the alzebo, but is a rarer, better, and\nmore powerful drug.\n\n--Don Palumbo\nAnd Sev does not just get their memories, any more than he just got\nThecla's. They come to life in him. This is part of how he passes the\ntrial.\n        I originally thought this was\nnod to Casher O'Neill in *On the Sand Planet* by C. Smith, who passes\ntrials with the same benefit as gained in *On the Wind Planet,* but Wolfe\ntold me Smith was not an influence on him.\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.urth.net/\nTo unsubscribe: send \"unsubscribe\" to\nurth-request at urth.net\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-07-10T14:53:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian, memory, alzabo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:17 AM 7/10/2003, you wrote:\nI can't recall any clue that suggests Sev's experience with autarchical\ninheritance was different from his predecessors - and he has his\npredecessors memories for guidance and comparison.\n\nMatthew" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I assume you refer to the possibility that the previous autarchs are \nbrought back to life in Sev. I don't know of an explicit clue either, but \nWolfe has said that he \"only says things one time\" in these books. The fact \nthat Thecla comes to life inside Sev seems to me to be the only clue we need.\n Of course, since eating the Autarch is not by alzabo juice, there \nmay be a difference. Yet, both of these things link to the Christian \nEucharist, which is not merely symbolic (for Wolfe anyway), but has to do \nwith \"Christ living in you.\"\n Hence, if they did not come back to life inside Sev, I'd want to \nknow why not.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-07-10T19:46:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian, memory, alzabo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not know where to find it exactly, but I believe I got this impression \nfrom a passage that indicates that the voices/memories of the autarchs from \nthe most distant past are more faint. There could be other explanations, I \nsuppose, but I read it as an indication that a certain amount was lost on \neach passing generation.\n\nWith Severian (in theory) there would be no loss.\n\nBut in any event yes, this is probably to be inferred from the fact that \nSev's experience with Thecla was distinctly different, with a certain amount \nof rationalization thrown in. It seems natural, and I can't think of any \nreason to think otherwise.\n\nCivet" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:17 AM 7/10/2003, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I can't recall any clue that suggests Sev's experience with autarchical\ninheritance was different from his predecessors - and he has his\npredecessors memories for guidance and comparison.\n\nMatthew" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I assume you refer to the possibility that the previous autarchs are \nbrought back to life in Sev. I don't know of an explicit clue either, but \nWolfe has said that he \"only says things one time\" in these books. The fact \nthat Thecla comes to life inside Sev seems to me to be the only clue we \nneed.\n Of course, since eating the Autarch is not by alzabo juice, there \nmay be a difference. Yet, both of these things link to the Christian \nEucharist, which is not merely symbolic (for Wolfe anyway), but has to do \nwith \"Christ living in you.\"\n Hence, if they did not come back to life inside Sev, I'd want to \nknow why not.\n\nNutria\n\n\n--" } ] } ] }