Subject: Re: (urth) Severian, memory, alzabo

From: Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 04:13:16 +0000

Chris offered:

> As a final note (I have rambled too long), I've also
> wondered if perhaps Severian had a normal memory, 
> but came to believe that his memory seemed perfect
> to him because of the recursive-alzabo-effect I was
> talking about earlier. Even receiving partial
> memories an infinite number of times would lead to
> perfect recall, but only of *those* memories.

I've wondered the same thing, especially since what
bothered me about the alzabo effect has always been
that I couldn't figure out if Severian only gains, for
example, the memories that Thecla remembered with her
"imperfect" (i.e., normal) memory or if he gained
*all* of her experiences which might have somehow been
"in" the part of her that he eats. That led me to some
wilder speculation towards wondering if the tradition
of the Autarch eating the previous Autarch began with
the first Ymar who was HIMSELF Severian (with, again,
a perfect memory). The only way, perhaps, for one
"incarnation" to share all of the memories of the
previous one would be to "ingest" those memories
through the Alzabo.

I'm not sure, tho, that the alzabo itself is
responsible for his supposedly perfect memory since
Severian speaks as if he perfeclty remembers the
events before his first experience with the alzabo in
Vodalu's forest. 

Another piece of Severian-memory (or lack thereof)
that bothers me is how he gets lost in the tunnels
before the Atrium of Time. Granted it's dark and
confusing, but couldn't someone with a perfect memory
stop and retrace the whole thing?

Craig

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From: Don Palumbo <enpalumb at earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 17:05:04 +0000

As a few people have said this, it may be worth pointing out that the 
Autarchs do not use the alzebo drug to pass on their memories.  When the 
Autarch has Severian kill him and eat his forebrain, he points out 
specifically that the drug in the vial around his neck is not taken from 
the alzebo, but is a rarer, better, and more powerful drug.

--Don Palumbo

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 15:45:03 +0000

>the alzebo, but is a rarer, better, and more powerful drug.

And Sev does not just get their memories, any more than he just got 
Thecla's. They come to life in him. This is part of how he passes the trial.
         I originally thought this was nod to Casher O'Neill in *On the 
Sand Planet* by C. Smith, who passes trials with the same benefit as gained 
in *On the Wind Planet,* but Wolfe told me Smith was not an influence on him.

Nutria

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 18:09:22 +0000

This is true, though the fact that they come to life within him seems unique 
to Sev (regardless of which concoction he uses) rather than characteristic 
of the autarch's drug. If I had to guess I would say that the difference 
between the drugs is that *for a normal person* the memories gained from the 
alzabo fade quickly and are lost, whereas the autarchs must retain more of 
them and on more of a permanent basis. With Sev this difference doesn't seem 
to be so large.

Chris

>in *On the Wind Planet,* but Wolfe told me Smith was not an influence on 

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:17:09 +0000

>them and on more of a permanent basis. With Sev this difference doesn't 
seem

I can't recall any clue that suggests Sev's experience with autarchical 
inheritance was different from his predecessors - and he has his 
predecessors memories for guidance and comparison.

The other occasion when Sev eats of Thecla he (and we) have the warning 
that sharing those whom one knew well and were emotionally tied to already 
had dangers.  Did not Thea avoid the experince for this reason?

Matthew

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From: Don Palumbo <enpalumb at earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:47:53 +0000

<html>
Nutria,

Wolfe is an engaging and surprisingly modest guy.  I was once
talking with him after having read only The Shadow of the Torturer
(this must be at least 15 years ago), and I told him how much I liked it
and how I was looking forward to reading the rest of the BNS, and he was
quite eager to "save me the trouble" and wanted to tell me how
it all came out on the spot.  I insisted on not being told, but in
retrospect it would have been interesting to have heard his off-the-cuff
version.

--Don Palumbo

At 10:45 AM 7/9/03 -0500, James Jordan wrote:
At 12:05 PM 7/9/2003, you wrote:
As a few people have said this, it may be
worth pointing out that the Autarchs do not use the alzebo drug to pass
on their memories.  When the Autarch has Severian kill him and eat
his forebrain, he points out specifically that the drug in the vial
around his neck is not taken from the alzebo, but is a rarer, better, and
more powerful drug.

--Don Palumbo
And Sev does not just get their memories, any more than he just got
Thecla's. They come to life in him. This is part of how he passes the
trial.
        I originally thought this was
nod to Casher O'Neill in *On the Sand Planet* by C. Smith, who passes
trials with the same benefit as gained in *On the Wind Planet,* but Wolfe
told me Smith was not an influence on him.

Nutria

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:53:58 +0000

>predecessors memories for guidance and comparison.

I assume you refer to the possibility that the previous autarchs are 
brought back to life in Sev. I don't know of an explicit clue either, but 
Wolfe has said that he "only says things one time" in these books. The fact 
that Thecla comes to life inside Sev seems to me to be the only clue we need.
         Of course, since eating the Autarch is not by alzabo juice, there 
may be a difference. Yet, both of these things link to the Christian 
Eucharist, which is not merely symbolic (for Wolfe anyway), but has to do 
with "Christ living in you."
         Hence, if they did not come back to life inside Sev, I'd want to 
know why not.

Nutria

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:46:40 +0000

I do not know where to find it exactly, but I believe I got this impression 
from a passage that indicates that the voices/memories of the autarchs from 
the most distant past are more faint. There could be other explanations, I 
suppose, but I read it as an indication that a certain amount was lost on 
each passing generation.

With Severian (in theory) there would be no loss.

But in any event yes, this is probably to be inferred from the fact that 
Sev's experience with Thecla was distinctly different, with a certain amount 
of rationalization thrown in. It seems natural, and I can't think of any 
reason to think otherwise.

Civet

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