{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4074", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4074, "subject": "Severian's motive for memory", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2003-07-09T05:54:28+00:00", "last": "2003-07-10T00:58:22+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2003-07-09T05:54:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's motive for memory", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't expect that everyone will agree with me on this one, but I think it \njustifies Severian's CONTINUAL claims of perfect memory a bit.\n\nFirst off, let's think about Severian's audience in Book of the New Sun: he is \nthe autarch, and he wants to quell the angry exultants who don't like \ncommoners or half-breeds on the throne, the ones who gave Appian so much \ntrouble that he had to keep hostages to kill if a family got out of hand (his \nconcubines). Severian also has to worry about threats from outer space, \nthreats from sea powers that he doesn't understand, and threats from the \nnorth. In the popularity polls, I think this would make a ruler a lot lower \nthan Nixon. Nixon didn't torture people from birth. So what does Severian \ndo? He writes a narrative in which he purports to be a religious figure of \nDESTINY - his fate pre-ordained from the beginning. He uses ghosts of old \nmasters to put forth the idea that the highest form of government is loyalty \nto the person of the monarch: ie - whoever is in charge now is the big boss, \nand no hostile takeover should be allowed since he is like God. Indeed, \nTriskele is used in this scene as a sample worshiper of Severian. He placates \nthe insurgents like Vodalus by claiming from the very beginning that he's on \ntheir side, and always has been. He presents the Ascians in a more \nsympathetic light than can be expected because he probably wants the war to \nend. He tries very hard to make it clear that he is the ordained master, the \nNew Sun. Note that it is not this Severian who brings the new sun and writes \nUrth of the New Sun - that is another one. Notice that over and over Severian \nwill try to show how his destiny was inescapable: he was forced to eat Thecla \n(who was definitely a supporter of Vodalus and Abia, since she wanted to go up \nto Lake Diuturna when she got out and talked about pelagic depths all the \ntime), forced to eat the old autarch, and destined for a throne without real \ndesire for it. In many ways, the first four books can be seen as a political \ndocument apologizing for his rise to autarch. He has been manipulated by \npowers which should not be meddled with, but from the beginning he had some \npresentiment of that great destiny.\n\nWhy the insistence that his memory is perfect? For one thing, he wants his \naudience to believe that once and for all he is the commonwealth - all the \nmemories of its rulers live on in his perfect mind. Another reason is that I \nbelieve that he has lived his life over and over again - there is little \nevidence that Severian is going to go back in time after the end of Urth of \nthe New Sun and be an autarch whose forebrain will be eaten in the line of \nsuccession. And yes, Severian DID have access to the Book of Canog, which was \nthe Book of the New Sun, and the story of his life. It was one of the four \nthat he checked out for Thecla, according to Wolfe in his little essay in \nPlan(e)t Engineering. So he could have read his life before.\n\nIn any case, the political agenda of the first four books (which I insist were \nwritten by a very different Severian than Urth of the New Sun) is quite clear: \nSeverian was destined to be the ruler, and possibly save the Urth, so don't \nrebel or complain. Or he'll torture you, because he's good at that, too. And \nhe's not afraid of putting people in their place violently, like Eata.\nAnd he won't ever, ever forget if you betray him. \nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2003-07-09T13:53:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's motive for memory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:54 AM 7/9/2003, you wrote:\n (which I insist were\nwritten by a very different Severian than Urth of the New Sun)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc,\n I guess I've been asleep, but if this is something that's been \ndiscussed and is now agreed upon, I missed it. What evidence is there for this?\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-07-09T17:42:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's motive for memory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm completely willing to entertain the concept of BotNS as a piece of \npropaganda, but in practical terms I just can't see it as beneficial to \nSeverian's position *politically*. In many ways it's counter-productive, but \nthe most important one is that it paints him into a corner w.r.t. the New \nSun. The book leaves off with him about to be tested. Any of his subjects \nwho read it after that point will expect a new sun to have arrived, and if \nthey don't get it then they will assume that Severian is a failure. If Sev \nis in fact expecting to provide a new sun, then he doesn't really need a \nbook to assure his political power. And if he's not, then by no means does \nit serve his purpose to create an immediate expectation of one - he would \nbenefit more by ending his book by implying that the test will take place at \nsome point in the distant future (\"If you're just patient enough, Severian \nwill fix all this one day.\")\n\nIMHO if the book is a piece of propaganda, it is probably for religious \nreasons (and not necessarily hypocritical ones - he may be proselytizing for \nbeliefs that he personally holds).\n\nAlso, if you do assume that Severian had a copy of BotNS then you have said \na mouthful. There are several different ways you can go with it (I \nconsidered drawing a diagram for myself, but of course it wouldn't translate \nwell to posting), but the implications of any of them are overwhelming \nenough that they tend to set the tone of how you interpret the entire book. \nThey also tend to preclude a simple, propagandistic reading.\n\nOn a side note, is anyone using the name \"Civet\"? I've been fascinated by \nthese little beasties lately.\n\nChris\n\nMarc said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't expect that everyone will agree with me on this one, but I think it\njustifies Severian's CONTINUAL claims of perfect memory a bit.\n\nFirst off, let's think about Severian's audience in Book of the New Sun: he \nis\nthe autarch, and he wants to quell the angry exultants who don't like\ncommoners or half-breeds on the throne, the ones who gave Appian so much\ntrouble that he had to keep hostages to kill if a family got out of hand \n(his\nconcubines). Severian also has to worry about threats from outer space,\nthreats from sea powers that he doesn't understand, and threats from the\nnorth. In the popularity polls, I think this would make a ruler a lot \nlower\nthan Nixon. Nixon didn't torture people from birth. So what does Severian\ndo? He writes a narrative in which he purports to be a religious figure of\nDESTINY - his fate pre-ordained from the beginning. He uses ghosts of old\nmasters to put forth the idea that the highest form of government is \nloyalty\nto the person of the monarch: ie - whoever is in charge now is the big \nboss,\nand no hostile takeover should be allowed since he is like God. Indeed,\nTriskele is used in this scene as a sample worshiper of Severian. He \nplacates\nthe insurgents like Vodalus by claiming from the very beginning that he's \non\ntheir side, and always has been. He presents the Ascians in a more\nsympathetic light than can be expected because he probably wants the war to\nend. He tries very hard to make it clear that he is the ordained master, \nthe\nNew Sun. Note that it is not this Severian who brings the new sun and \nwrites\nUrth of the New Sun - that is another one. Notice that over and over \nSeverian\nwill try to show how his destiny was inescapable: he was forced to eat \nThecla\n(who was definitely a supporter of Vodalus and Abia, since she wanted to go \nup\nto Lake Diuturna when she got out and talked about pelagic depths all the\ntime), forced to eat the old autarch, and destined for a throne without \nreal\ndesire for it. In many ways, the first four books can be seen as a \npolitical\ndocument apologizing for his rise to autarch. He has been manipulated by\npowers which should not be meddled with, but from the beginning he had some\npresentiment of that great destiny.\n\nWhy the insistence that his memory is perfect? For one thing, he wants his\naudience to believe that once and for all he is the commonwealth - all the\nmemories of its rulers live on in his perfect mind. Another reason is that \nI\nbelieve that he has lived his life over and over again - there is little\nevidence that Severian is going to go back in time after the end of Urth of\nthe New Sun and be an autarch whose forebrain will be eaten in the line of\nsuccession. And yes, Severian DID have access to the Book of Canog, which \nwas\nthe Book of the New Sun, and the story of his life. It was one of the four\nthat he checked out for Thecla, according to Wolfe in his little essay in\nPlan(e)t Engineering. So he could have read his life before.\n\nIn any case, the political agenda of the first four books (which I insist \nwere\nwritten by a very different Severian than Urth of the New Sun) is quite \nclear:\nSeverian was destined to be the ruler, and possibly save the Urth, so don't\nrebel or complain. Or he'll torture you, because he's good at that, too. \nAnd\nhe's not afraid of putting people in their place violently, like Eata.\nAnd he won't ever, ever forget if you betray him.\nMarc Aramini\n\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-07-09T18:17:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's motive for memory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "People will only be expecting the New Sun after Severian has left with\nthe hierodules. It's not his problem after that. It is Valeria's and her\nboyfriend's problem. We don't know what means they used to keep things\nquiet and moving along. Running a country is a big enough deal even \nwithout worrying about what happens after your reign. \n\n\n\n.\n\n___" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 2003-07-09 at 10:42, Chris wrote:\nI'm completely willing to entertain the concept of BotNS as a piece of \npropaganda, but in practical terms I just can't see it as beneficial to \nSeverian's position *politically*. In many ways it's counter-productive, but \nthe most important one is that it paints him into a corner w.r.t. the New \nSun. The book leaves off with him about to be tested. Any of his subjects \nwho read it after that point will expect a new sun to have arrived, and if \nthey don't get it then they will assume that Severian is a failure. If Sev \nis in fact expecting to provide a new sun, then he doesn't really need a \nbook to assure his political power. And if he's not, then by no means does \nit serve his purpose to create an immediate expectation of one - he would \nbenefit more by ending his book by implying that the test will take place at \nsome point in the distant future (\"If you're just patient enough, Severian \nwill fix all this one day.\")\n\nIMHO if the book is a piece of propaganda, it is probably for religious \nreasons (and not necessarily hypocritical ones - he may be proselytizing for \nbeliefs that he personally holds).\n\nAlso, if you do assume that Severian had a copy of BotNS then you have said \na mouthful. There are several different ways you can go with it (I \nconsidered drawing a diagram for myself, but of course it wouldn't translate \nwell to posting), but the implications of any of them are overwhelming \nenough that they tend to set the tone of how you interpret the entire book. \nThey also tend to preclude a simple, propagandistic reading.\n\nOn a side note, is anyone using the name \"Civet\"? I've been fascinated by \nthese little beasties lately.\n\nChris\n\nMarc said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't expect that everyone will agree with me on this one, but I think it\njustifies Severian's CONTINUAL claims of perfect memory a bit.\n\nFirst off, let's think about Severian's audience in Book of the New Sun: he \nis\nthe autarch, and he wants to quell the angry exultants who don't like\ncommoners or half-breeds on the throne, the ones who gave Appian so much\ntrouble that he had to keep hostages to kill if a family got out of hand \n(his\nconcubines). Severian also has to worry about threats from outer space,\nthreats from sea powers that he doesn't understand, and threats from the\nnorth. In the popularity polls, I think this would make a ruler a lot \nlower\nthan Nixon. Nixon didn't torture people from birth. So what does Severian\ndo? He writes a narrative in which he purports to be a religious figure of\nDESTINY - his fate pre-ordained from the beginning. He uses ghosts of old\nmasters to put forth the idea that the highest form of government is \nloyalty\nto the person of the monarch: ie - whoever is in charge now is the big \nboss,\nand no hostile takeover should be allowed since he is like God. Indeed,\nTriskele is used in this scene as a sample worshiper of Severian. He \nplacates\nthe insurgents like Vodalus by claiming from the very beginning that he's \non\ntheir side, and always has been. He presents the Ascians in a more\nsympathetic light than can be expected because he probably wants the war to\nend. He tries very hard to make it clear that he is the ordained master, \nthe\nNew Sun. Note that it is not this Severian who brings the new sun and \nwrites\nUrth of the New Sun - that is another one. Notice that over and over \nSeverian\nwill try to show how his destiny was inescapable: he was forced to eat \nThecla\n(who was definitely a supporter of Vodalus and Abia, since she wanted to go \nup\nto Lake Diuturna when she got out and talked about pelagic depths all the\ntime), forced to eat the old autarch, and destined for a throne without \nreal\ndesire for it. In many ways, the first four books can be seen as a \npolitical\ndocument apologizing for his rise to autarch. He has been manipulated by\npowers which should not be meddled with, but from the beginning he had some\npresentiment of that great destiny.\n\nWhy the insistence that his memory is perfect? For one thing, he wants his\naudience to believe that once and for all he is the commonwealth - all the\nmemories of its rulers live on in his perfect mind. Another reason is that \nI\nbelieve that he has lived his life over and over again - there is little\nevidence that Severian is going to go back in time after the end of Urth of\nthe New Sun and be an autarch whose forebrain will be eaten in the line of\nsuccession. And yes, Severian DID have access to the Book of Canog, which \nwas\nthe Book of the New Sun, and the story of his life. It was one of the four\nthat he checked out for Thecla, according to Wolfe in his little essay in\nPlan(e)t Engineering. So he could have read his life before.\n\nIn any case, the political agenda of the first four books (which I insist \nwere\nwritten by a very different Severian than Urth of the New Sun) is quite \nclear:\nSeverian was destined to be the ruler, and possibly save the Urth, so don't\nrebel or complain. Or he'll torture you, because he's good at that, too. \nAnd\nhe's not afraid of putting people in their place violently, like Eata.\nAnd he won't ever, ever forget if you betray him.\nMarc Aramini\n\n\n\n--" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nTired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. \nhttp://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "the.wynns at usa.net" }, "date": "2003-07-10T00:58:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's motive for memory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris asks:\nOn a side note, is anyone using the name \"Civet\"? I've been fascinated by\nthese little beasties lately.\n\nCrush proffers:\nSince you are interested in civets I'll remind you that Musk went by that\nname, sort of. \"Civet\" is synonymous with \"perfume\" and is the original\n\"musk\".\n\n-- Crush" } ] } ] }