{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4076", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4076, "subject": "TBOTNS as political document and the wait for new sun", "messages": 7, "voices": 3, "first": "2003-07-09T19:40:27+00:00", "last": "2003-07-10T16:33:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-07-09T19:40:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TBOTNS as political document and the wait for new sun", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Responding to Marc Aramini, Civet wrote:\nI'm completely willing to entertain the concept of BotNS as a piece of\npropaganda, but in practical terms I just can't see it as beneficial to\nSeverian's position *politically*." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I want to point out that John Clute first raised the interpretation of The\nBook as political. His essay is in STROKES, a collection of his essays and\nreviews." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In many ways it's counter-productive, but\nthe most important one is that it paints him into a corner w.r.t. the New\nSun. The book leaves off with him about to be tested. Any of his subjects\nwho read it after that point will expect a new sun to have arrived, and if\nthey don't get it then they will assume that Severian is a failure. If Sev\nis in fact expecting to provide a new sun, then he doesn't really need a\nbook to assure his political power. And if he's not, then by no means does\nit serve his purpose to create an immediate expectation of one - he would\nbenefit more by ending his book by implying that the test will take place at\nsome point in the distant future (\"If you're just patient enough, Severian\nwill fix all this one day.\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This raises the question of how long anyone thinks the wait will be.\nSeverian is probably the most \"in the know\" in the Commonwealth (aside from\nFather Inire, of course), and judging by his actions/reactions, he seems to\nhave thought that the whole thing would happen in real-time, synchronized\nwith his experience, so that he would return to Urth in less than a year\nand the Old Sun would have been replaced with a New Sun.\n\nThat is: from the moment he gets on the Ship, the Old Sun will last only a\nfew more months -- certainly not a year.\n\nFrom his point of view it took a bit longer than he thought, but still less\nthan a year, whereas from Urth's point of view 40 years had gone by.\nWhoops!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, if you do assume that Severian had a copy of BotNS then you have said\na mouthful. There are several different ways you can go with it (I\nconsidered drawing a diagram for myself, but of course it wouldn't translate\nwell to posting), but the implications of any of them are overwhelming\nenough that they tend to set the tone of how you interpret the entire book.\nThey also tend to preclude a simple, propagandistic reading." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The distinction is being made between Canog's book (he overheard the\nConciliator talking to his friends about the death of the sun and the\ncoming of a new one), which presumably became something of a bible for the\nchurch of the Conciliator, and Severian's book, which is a rip-roaring\nheroic adventure tale (with graphic sex and violence, monsters and magic,\netc.).\n\nI think Severian the Narrator chooses to call his tale by the same name\nbecause he understands that he will be bringing the new sun: he himself\nreally will be \"finishing\" that tale, a somewhat garbled storyline begun\n1000 years earlier (by himself, but he doesn't guess that part yet: he\nknows he will be Apu Punchau, but not the Conciliator). And nobody\nremembers Canog's book, anyway -- iirc, Talos says it is \"long lost.\"\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-07-10T09:22:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) TBOTNS as political document and the wait for new sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 09/07/2003 20:40:27 Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nResponding to Marc Aramini, Civet wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm completely willing to entertain the concept of BotNS as a piece of\npropaganda, but in practical terms I just can't see it as beneficial to\nSeverian's position *politically*." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I want to point out that John Clute first raised the interpretation of \nThe\nBook as political. His essay is in STROKES, a collection of his essays \nand\nreviews." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian states that he sent one copy of the manuscript to the library at \nthe citadel and will cast the second - the copy we are reading - into the \nvoid.\n\nWouldn't a conscious effort at propaganda require a rather more active \neffort at publication and dissemination? Without that I can't see \nSeverain having contemporary politic motives as being credible. A concern \nfor history - one that rulers often have - looks more plausible.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-07-10T15:55:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) TBOTNS as political document and the wait for new sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 02:22, matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk wrote:\nSeverian states that he sent one copy of the manuscript to the library at \nthe citadel and will cast the second - the copy we are reading - into the \nvoid." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what he says." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wouldn't a conscious effort at propaganda require a rather more active \neffort at publication and dissemination? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How extensive is the Library again?\n\nDoesn't Severian remark to the effect that 'surely the rabble of the\ncity are not permitted here'? I don't recall him receiving an answer,\ndo you?\n\nIn a society that does not have mechanical printing, where would be\nthe most likely place to find a scriptorium? \n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-07-10T15:41:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) TBOTNS as political document and the wait for new sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/07/2003 16:55:41 Josh Geller wrote:\nOn Thu, 2003-07-10 at 02:22, matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian states that he sent one copy of the manuscript to the library \nat\nthe citadel and will cast the second - the copy we are reading - into \nthe\nvoid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's what he says." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wouldn't a conscious effort at propaganda require a rather more active\neffort at publication and dissemination?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How extensive is the Library again?\n\nDoesn't Severian remark to the effect that 'surely the rabble of the\ncity are not permitted here'? I don't recall him receiving an answer,\ndo you?\n\nIn a society that does not have mechanical printing, where would be\nthe most likely place to find a scriptorium?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Plausible.\n\nBut no clue that the Commonwealth _is_ a society without mechanical \nprinting. Ultan and Cyby are Curators not Scrivenors.\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-07-10T16:15:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) TBOTNS as political document and the wait for new sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 08:41, matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk wrote:\nOn 10/07/2003 16:55:41 Josh Geller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In a society that does not have mechanical printing, where would be\nthe most likely place to find a scriptorium?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I misspoke slightly. I think that they do have mechanical\nprinting, but not much need for it because the society is mostly \nilliterate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But no clue that the Commonwealth _is_ a society without mechanical \nprinting. Ultan and Cyby are Curators not Scrivenors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. But I think what I say still applies. There don't seem to me\ntoo many books around, and no newspapers. There is also no mention of\na Printer's Guild (btw, secular guilds in the middle ages did have\nceremonies analogous to the St. Katherine's Day feast). I think that \nif there are any printing presses around, the librarians control all\nor most of them, and in the same way that the use of the roads is \nforbidden to the general populace, the use of printing is forbidden to\npeople not associated with the government, as the Library certainly is.\n\nPerhaps upon receiving the book, Master Ultan had enough copies made to\nstock the branches of the library.\n\n\n\n\n\n.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-07-10T15:58:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) TBOTNS as political document and the wait for new sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/07/2003 17:15:56 Josh Geller wrote:\nPerhaps upon receiving the book, Master Ultan had enough copies made to\nstock the branches of the library." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What need of branches when L-Space bends sufficiently to put Ultan's \nstacks both in the Citadel and the House Absolute. :-)\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-07-10T16:33:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) TBOTNS as political document and the wait for new sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 08:58, matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk wrote:\nOn 10/07/2003 17:15:56 Josh Geller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps upon receiving the book, Master Ultan had enough copies made to\nstock the branches of the library." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What need of branches when L-Space bends sufficiently to put Ultan's \nstacks both in the Citadel and the House Absolute. :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps 'branch' is not quite the exact term. But the Library extends\nto the City, as well as to the Citadel and the House Absolute. This\nis explicit.\n\n\n\n." } ] } ] }