Subject: (urth) TBOTNS as political document and the wait for new sun

From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:40:27 +0000

Responding to Marc Aramini, Civet wrote:
>I'm completely willing to entertain the concept of BotNS as a piece of
>propaganda, but in practical terms I just can't see it as beneficial to
>Severian's position *politically*.

I want to point out that John Clute first raised the interpretation of The
Book as political.  His essay is in STROKES, a collection of his essays and
reviews.

> In many ways it's counter-productive, but
>the most important one is that it paints him into a corner w.r.t. the New
>Sun. The book leaves off with him about to be tested. Any of his subjects
>who read it after that point will expect a new sun to have arrived, and if
>they don't get it then they will assume that Severian is a failure. If Sev
>is in fact expecting to provide a new sun, then he doesn't really need a
>book to assure his political power. And if he's not, then by no means does
>it serve his purpose to create an immediate expectation of one - he would
>benefit more by ending his book by implying that the test will take place at
>some point in the distant future ("If you're just patient enough, Severian
>will fix all this one day.")

This raises the question of how long anyone thinks the wait will be.
Severian is probably the most "in the know" in the Commonwealth (aside from
Father Inire, of course), and judging by his actions/reactions, he seems to
have thought that the whole thing would happen in real-time, synchronized
with his experience, so that he would return to Urth in less than a year
and the Old Sun would have been replaced with a New Sun.

That is: from the moment he gets on the Ship, the Old Sun will last only a
few more months -- certainly not a year.

>From his point of view it took a bit longer than he thought, but still less
than a year, whereas from Urth's point of view 40 years had gone by.
Whoops!

>Also, if you do assume that Severian had a copy of BotNS then you have said
>a mouthful. There are several different ways you can go with it (I
>considered drawing a diagram for myself, but of course it wouldn't translate
>well to posting), but the implications of any of them are overwhelming
>enough that they tend to set the tone of how you interpret the entire book.
>They also tend to preclude a simple, propagandistic reading.

The distinction is being made between Canog's book (he overheard the
Conciliator talking to his friends about the death of the sun and the
coming of a new one), which presumably became something of a bible for the
church of the Conciliator, and Severian's book, which is a rip-roaring
heroic adventure tale (with graphic sex and violence, monsters and magic,
etc.).

I think Severian the Narrator chooses to call his tale by the same name
because he understands that he will be bringing the new sun: he himself
really will be "finishing" that tale, a somewhat garbled storyline begun
1000 years earlier (by himself, but he doesn't guess that part yet: he
knows he will be Apu Punchau, but not the Conciliator).  And nobody
remembers Canog's book, anyway -- iirc, Talos says it is "long lost."

=mantis=

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:22:07 +0000

>Book as political.  His essay is in STROKES, a collection of his essays 
and

Severian states that he sent one copy of the manuscript to the library at 
the citadel and will cast the second - the copy we are reading - into the 
void.

Wouldn't a conscious effort at propaganda require a rather more active 
effort at publication and dissemination?  Without that I can't see 
Severain having contemporary politic motives as being credible.  A concern 
for history - one that rulers often have - looks more plausible.

Matthew

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:55:41 +0000

> the citadel and will cast the second - the copy we are reading - into the 

That's what he says.

> effort at publication and dissemination? 

How extensive is the Library again?

Doesn't Severian remark to the effect that 'surely the rabble of the
city are not permitted here'? I don't recall him receiving an answer,
do you?

In a society that does not have mechanical printing, where would be
the most likely place to find a scriptorium? 

.

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:41:27 +0000

>the most likely place to find a scriptorium?

Plausible.

But no clue that the Commonwealth _is_ a society without mechanical 
printing.  Ultan and Cyby are Curators not Scrivenors.

Matthew

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:15:56 +0000

>>the most likely place to find a scriptorium?

Actually, I misspoke slightly. I think that they do have mechanical
printing, but not much need for it because the society is mostly 
illiterate.

> printing.  Ultan and Cyby are Curators not Scrivenors.

Exactly. But I think what I say still applies. There don't seem to me
too many books around, and no newspapers. There is also no mention of
a Printer's Guild (btw, secular guilds in the middle ages did have
ceremonies analogous to the St. Katherine's Day feast). I think that 
if there are any printing presses around, the librarians control all
or most of them, and in the same way that the use of the roads is 
forbidden to the general populace, the use of printing is forbidden to
people not associated with the government, as the Library certainly is.

Perhaps upon receiving the book, Master Ultan had enough copies made to
stock the branches of the library.

.

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:58:58 +0000

>stock the branches of the library.

What need of branches when L-Space bends sufficiently to put Ultan's 
stacks both in the Citadel and the House Absolute.  :-)

Matthew

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:33:38 +0000

> stacks both in the Citadel and the House Absolute.  :-)

Perhaps 'branch' is not quite the exact term. But the Library extends
to the City, as well as to the Citadel and the House Absolute. This
is explicit.

.

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