{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4079", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4079, "subject": "different sev's and silk as seeker", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-07-10T05:57:55+00:00", "last": "2003-07-11T04:05:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2003-07-10T05:57:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) different sev's and silk as seeker", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two brief points:\n\nI believe Nutria asked me to clarify why I stated that the author of Urth of \nthe New Sun was different than the Severian of Book of the New Sun. Note that \nthe old Severian copies out the Book of the New Sun again and then dies \nfalling down a shaft, after which point another physical body is created, then \nyet another one is made before that eidolon writes Urth of the New Sun: a copy \nof a copy. It isn't the same human hand - that's all I meant, and there may \nbe other differences (since the hierodules aren't really God, after all - they \njust approximate him as best they can)\n\nAs far as I know, Wolfe was not specific about Silk being the only member of \nthe Seekers for Truth and Penitence. Here is my take: the Matachine Tower is \nthe last refuge of a distorted Catholic church: all male, in black, seeking to \nserve a greater justice beyond their ability to judge. They obey. They have \nceremonies of religious import, but the church has ultimately fractured into \nthe female Pelerines and the more sedentary torturers, who have adapted a bit \nof a secular role in punishment - bringing hell to Urth a bit before death, \nbut still serving a higher power. Purgatory, if you will.\nSilk is a member of a distorted church that seeks truth and penitence as well, \nbut since the traditions have been muddled with by Typhon, it is even more \ncorrupted by polytheism. They still wear black and even have the sign of \naddition and confession and other DISTINCTLY Catholic sacraments (Silk even \nknows about the eucharist, but I think sacrifice has taken the place of that \nin their masses). So here is my take: the torturer's are very corrupt \npriests, and Silk is a priest of a polytheistic syncretic Catholicism (hell, \nthere's even a pope).\n\nI don't think we can use that interview statement to say that Silk is a clone \nof Ymar or Severian .... BUT on the other hand everyone and their brother \nthinks that Silk is a ghost of Malrubius, which STILL blows my mind. So ... \nSilk as clone of Malrubius, anyone? And where the hell would Typhon get a \nclone of a man born more than a thousand years after him to put on a ship, \nunless that \"original\" man (Malrubius) was a clone from an earlier source?\n\nAny explanations for why Silk (possibly with some small fragments of Horn left \ninside him and blurring his astral appearance) looks like Malrubius? Could \nthis be an explanation for why he needs to meet Severian?\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-07-10T06:43:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) different sev's and silk as seeker", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as I know, Wolfe was not specific about Silk being the only member\nof\nthe Seekers for Truth and Penitence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The actual comment from the Q&A:\n\n14. Is there a member (current, former, future) of the Order of Seekers for\nTruth and Penitence on the Whorl? -- I'm going to interpret this question in\nthe broadest possible sense, since that seems to be what Parsons wants. Yes,\nthere is. It is Silk.\n\nI suppose logcally that doesn't preclude the possibility that other priests\netc might also be members of the Order, in the broadest sense, but it does\nseem pretty Silk-specific to me.\n\nI don't think Wolfe intends an identification between Silk's synthetic\nchurch and Sev's guild in this statement; if he did, I think he would have\nsaid, \"Yes, there are - the priests of the Vironese Order\", or something\nlike that.\n\nI think it makes moire thematic sense for the Torturers to be distinctly\nsecular from the start. The historical inquisiition had to hand their\nvictims over to the secular arm for punishment, for example. The Masters of\nthe Guild have no priestly functions, as far as I can see, and their\nceremonies don't appear to have much to do with Christian ceremonies.\n\nSilk's Order is clearly a synthetic thing, with bits and pieces taken from\neverywhere, as reflected in the Chras Writings. There's a bit of\nChristianity, a bit of Greco-Roman paganism, a bit of Islam ... The Tortuers\non the other hand seem to me to be evolved prison guards - perhaps Ymar\ninstituted the Order, with a higher sense of mission than the thugs he grew\nup with?\n\nThere's a clear thematic parallel, of course: both Sev and Silk are raised\nwithin Orders which both come to realize are flawed and which they both grow\nout of or betray in some way. Ymar too, I suppose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any explanations for why Silk (possibly with some small fragments of Horn\nleft\ninside him and blurring his astral appearance) looks like Malrubius?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've seen this said before, but I don't remember anything from the tet\nsaying they look alike. Have I missed something?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-07-10T09:54:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) different sev's and silk as seeker", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/07/2003 06:57:55 maa32 wrote:\nAs far as I know, Wolfe was not specific about Silk being the only member \nof\nthe Seekers for Truth and Penitence. Here is my take: the Matachine \nTower is\nthe last refuge of a distorted Catholic church: all male, in black, \nseeking to\nserve a greater justice beyond their ability to judge. They obey. They \nhave\nceremonies of religious import, but the church has ultimately fractured \ninto\n ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\nthe female Pelerines and the more sedentary torturers, who have adapted a \nbit\nof a secular role in punishment - bringing hell to Urth a bit before \ndeath,\nbut still serving a higher power. Purgatory, if you will." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are not alone. The librarians have analagous ceremonies to those \ndescribed for the torturers, it is mentioned in Sev's conversation with \nUltan that they are held in the catederal rather than the chapel. Other \nguilds to process on ceremonial occasions. Would all be remnants of \ncorrupt priesthood or are they not more likely to be inheritors of lay \norganisations performing religious acts of devotion to their spiritual \npatrons as still happens in many part of the world?\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-07-10T10:01:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) different sev's and silk as seeker", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/07/2003 07:43:14 Andrew Bollen wrote:\nI think it makes moire thematic sense for the Torturers to be distinctly\nsecular from the start. The historical inquisiition had to hand their\nvictims over to the secular arm for punishment, for example. The Masters \nof\nthe Guild have no priestly functions, as far as I can see, and their\nceremonies don't appear to have much to do with Christian ceremonies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a thousand year history of pageant, masque and re-enactment buy \nguilds, oratorical and chivalrous orders of scriptural events both in \nreligious and secular circumstances. The mummers plays and mysteries of \nEngland the the decenial cycle of mysteries in (some place I forget) \nGermany remain to this day.\n\nThe description of the ceremonies given by Severian with St Catherine, her \nwheel and execution are very much in accord with extant traditions.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-07-11T04:05:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) different sev's and silk as seeker", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Bollen wrote:\nThe actual comment from the Q&A:\n\n14. Is there a member (current, former, future) of the Order of Seekers for\nTruth and Penitence on the Whorl? -- I'm going to interpret this question\nin\nthe broadest possible sense, since that seems to be what Parsons wants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "there is. It is Silk.\n\nI suppose logcally that doesn't preclude the possibility that other priests\netc might also be members of the Order, in the broadest sense, but it does\nseem pretty Silk-specific to me.\n\nI don't think Wolfe intends an identification between Silk's synthetic\nchurch and Sev's guild in this statement; if he did, I think he would have\nsaid, \"Yes, there are - the priests of the Vironese Order\", or something\nlike that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that Wolfe didn't intend his answer to be taken in other than its\nmost figurative sense. Neither do I think that his answer is sufficient\ngrounds to try to establish some sort of physical familial relationship\nbetween Silk and Sev--or Horn or Typhon--much less Malrubius.\n\nIf one takes the meaning of \"Seekers for Truth and Penitence\" in a religious\nsense (its use by the Torturers is nothing if not ironic, as I see it), as\nthose dedicated to the adoration and placation of the Increate, as the\nphrase implies, then Silk could be said to be a member of that Order.\n\nThe Order's creed, \"Torturers obey\", means just that: blind, unreasoning,\nunquestioning fealty to a higher power. When Thecla pricked Sev's boyish\nmale ego shortly before her excruciation, it made it easier for whatever\npassed for his conscience to follow the Order's creed, not only not to\nprevent her torture but to participate in it. Only when it was too late for\nThecla did he think to violate the creed and help her to commit suicide.\nThat was Sev's first step on the moral ladder, and he never got much higher.\n\nSilk also violated the creed. Less that 24 hours after being enlightened by\nand pledging himself to the Outsider, the sight of a naked nubile woman and\nher flattery of his young male ego caused him to shift his new-found loyalty\nfrom the Outsider to a whore. Silk became obsessed with her, at least until\nhe had her. Like Sev, he came to realize his mistake too late, but was too\nnoble to turn his back on her. Unlike Sev, he contemplated _his own_\nsuicide. Silk strayed for twenty years and only when Hyacinth died did he\nreturn to the path the Outsider intended for him.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }