Subject: (urth) different sev's and silk as seeker

From: maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:57:55 +0000

Two brief points:

I believe Nutria asked me to clarify why I stated that the author of Urth of 
the New Sun was different than the Severian of Book of the New Sun.  Note that 
the old Severian copies out the Book of the New Sun again and then dies 
falling down a shaft, after which point another physical body is created, then 
yet another one is made before that eidolon writes Urth of the New Sun: a copy 
of a copy.  It isn't the same human hand - that's all I meant, and there may 
be other differences (since the hierodules aren't really God, after all - they 
just approximate him as best they can)

As far as I know, Wolfe was not specific about Silk being the only member of 
the Seekers for Truth and Penitence.  Here is my take: the Matachine Tower is 
the last refuge of a distorted Catholic church: all male, in black, seeking to 
serve a greater justice beyond their ability to judge.  They obey.  They have 
ceremonies of religious import, but the church has ultimately fractured into 
the female Pelerines and the more sedentary torturers, who have adapted a bit 
of a secular role in punishment - bringing hell to Urth a bit before death, 
but still serving a higher power.  Purgatory, if you will.
Silk is a member of a distorted church that seeks truth and penitence as well, 
but since the traditions have been muddled with by Typhon, it is even more 
corrupted by polytheism.  They still wear black and even have the sign of 
addition and confession and other DISTINCTLY Catholic sacraments (Silk even 
knows about the eucharist, but I think sacrifice has taken the place of that 
in their masses).  So here is my take: the torturer's are very corrupt 
priests, and Silk is a priest of a polytheistic syncretic Catholicism (hell, 
there's even a pope).

I don't think we can use that interview statement to say that Silk is a clone 
of Ymar or Severian .... BUT on the other hand everyone and their brother 
thinks that Silk is a ghost of Malrubius, which STILL blows my mind.  So ... 
Silk as clone of Malrubius, anyone?  And where the hell would Typhon get a 
clone of a man born more than a thousand years after him to put on a ship, 
unless that "original" man (Malrubius) was a clone from an earlier source?

Any explanations for why Silk (possibly with some small fragments of Horn left 
inside him and blurring his astral appearance) looks like Malrubius?  Could 
this be an explanation for why he needs to meet Severian?

Marc Aramini

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From: Andrew Bollen <abollen at internode.on.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 06:43:14 +0000

Marc writes:

> the Seekers for Truth and Penitence.

The actual comment from the Q&A:

14. Is there a member (current, former, future) of the Order of Seekers for
Truth and Penitence on the Whorl? -- I'm going to interpret this question in
the broadest possible sense, since that seems to be what Parsons wants. Yes,
there is. It is Silk.

I suppose logcally that doesn't preclude the possibility that other priests
etc might also be members of the Order, in the broadest sense, but it does
seem pretty Silk-specific to me.

I don't think Wolfe intends an identification between Silk's synthetic
church and Sev's guild in this statement; if he did, I think he would have
said, "Yes, there are - the priests of the Vironese Order", or something
like that.

I think it makes moire thematic sense for the Torturers to be distinctly
secular from the start. The historical inquisiition had to hand their
victims over to the secular arm for punishment, for example. The Masters of
the Guild have no priestly functions, as far as I can see, and their
ceremonies don't appear to have much to do with Christian ceremonies.

Silk's Order is clearly a synthetic thing, with bits and pieces taken from
everywhere, as reflected in the Chras Writings. There's a  bit of
Christianity, a bit of Greco-Roman paganism, a bit of Islam ... The Tortuers
on the other hand seem to me to be evolved prison guards - perhaps Ymar
instituted the Order, with a higher sense of mission than the thugs he grew
up with?

There's a clear thematic parallel, of course: both Sev and Silk are raised
within Orders which both come to realize are flawed and which they both grow
out of or betray in some way. Ymar too, I suppose.

> inside him and blurring his astral appearance) looks like Malrubius?

I've seen this said before, but I don't remember anything from the tet
saying they look alike. Have I missed something?

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:54:16 +0000

>ceremonies of religious import, but the church has ultimately fractured 
into
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>but still serving a higher power.  Purgatory, if you will.

They are not alone. The librarians have analagous ceremonies to those 
described for the torturers, it is mentioned in Sev's conversation with 
Ultan that they are held in the catederal rather than the chapel.  Other 
guilds to process on ceremonial occasions.  Would all be remnants of 
corrupt priesthood or are they not more likely to be inheritors of lay 
organisations performing religious acts of devotion to their spiritual 
patrons as still happens in many part of the world?

Matthew

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:01:35 +0000

>ceremonies don't appear to have much to do with Christian ceremonies.

There's a thousand year history of pageant, masque and re-enactment buy 
guilds, oratorical and chivalrous orders of scriptural events both in 
religious and secular circumstances.  The mummers plays and mysteries of 
England the the decenial cycle of mysteries in (some place I forget) 
Germany remain to this day.

The description of the ceremonies given by Severian with St Catherine, her 
wheel and execution are very much in accord with extant traditions.

Matthew

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 04:05:40 +0000

>said, "Yes, there are - the priests of the Vironese Order", or something

I agree that Wolfe didn't intend his answer to be taken in other than its
most figurative sense. Neither do I think that his answer is sufficient
grounds to try to establish some sort of physical familial relationship
between Silk and Sev--or Horn or Typhon--much less Malrubius.

If one takes the meaning of "Seekers for Truth and Penitence" in a religious
sense (its use by the Torturers is nothing if not ironic, as I see it), as
those dedicated to the adoration and placation of the Increate, as the
phrase implies, then Silk could be said to be a member of that Order.

The Order's creed, "Torturers obey", means just that: blind, unreasoning,
unquestioning fealty to a higher power. When Thecla pricked Sev's boyish
male ego shortly before her excruciation, it made it easier for whatever
passed for his conscience to follow the Order's creed, not only not to
prevent her torture but to participate in it. Only when it was too late for
Thecla did he think to violate the creed and help her to commit suicide.
That was Sev's first step on the moral ladder, and he never got much higher.

Silk also violated the creed. Less that 24 hours after being enlightened by
and pledging himself to the Outsider, the sight of a naked nubile woman and
her flattery of his young male ego caused him to shift his new-found loyalty
from the Outsider to a whore. Silk became obsessed with her, at least until
he had her. Like Sev, he came to realize his mistake too late, but was too
noble to turn his back on her. Unlike Sev, he contemplated _his own_
suicide. Silk strayed for twenty years and only when Hyacinth died did he
return to the path the Outsider intended for him.

-Roy

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