{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4080", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4080, "subject": "Silkhorn's memory; Sev's book", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-07-10T06:38:06+00:00", "last": "2003-07-15T15:57:19+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2003-07-10T06:38:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silkhorn's memory; Sev's book", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Recent discussion has asserted that Horn or Silk--or Silkhorn--had a perfect\nmemory, like Severian's. No such claim is made in either the LS or SS books.\n\nBTW, on my first reading of the SS series and every time since, I was struck\nby the sharp contrast between Horn's son's account of Sev's actions during\ntheir journey to Urth and the account Sev gave of the same time period in\nNS, the short time he had Triskele. By Sev's account, he did not have the\nliberty to be guiding visitors around or to interact with prisoners (such as\nopening cells and fetching Merryn) that is recounted in SS.\n\nAlso, the manuscript Sev wrote (the one he was finishing writing in the last\nchapter of CITADEL, on the eve of his journey to the stars) was to be sent\nto Master Ultan for archiving. It was never intended for publication in the\nCommonwealth, therefore was not intended to sway the populace during his\nreign or the subsequent regency. He even had to reproduce the manuscript by\nhand, from memory, aboard Tzadkiel's ship. It was this second copy that\nWolfe gave us. No other copies existed, afaik.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "the.wynns at usa.net" }, "date": "2003-07-10T09:05:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Silkhorn's memory; Sev's book", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy corrects:\n Recent discussion has asserted that Horn or Silk--or Silkhorn--had a\nperfect memory, like Severian's. No such claim is made in either the LS or\nSS books.\n\nCrush pipes up:\nThat is certainly true, and I'm glad you pointed that out, because I, who\nlaunched that branch of the recent discussion, certainly never claimed Horn\nsaid that.\n\nWhat I DID say was: \"Horn makes a _similar_ claim [to Severian's] that he\ndoes not believe he has 'forgotten anything' that he and Nettle wrote in the\nBook of Silk.\"\n\nThe reference is on page 43 of my hardcover copy of \"On Blue Waters\". It is\nnear the end of chapter one when he discusses the things he brought with him\non the boat:\n\n\"A copy of our book, which I meant to read during calms and the like, not so\nmuch to relearn the facts we had set down as to gently persuade my memory to\ndwell upon our conversations, and the conversations I had with Nettle, Moly,\nand others about him. You that read will not credit it, but I do not believe\nI have forgotten anything that Nettle and I put into our book, or that I\never will.\"\n\n\nI have loaned out my copy of tSotT but I am pretty sure this is a close\nparallel to something Severian said; basically, that he suspected readers\nwould doubt it, but he had perfect recall. While Horn limits his perfect\nmemory to events in his book, the parallel is there, and to my eye certainly\ndeliberate, and BECAUSE of its limitedness, even striking. It is the sort of\nboast that forces one to wonder why it is being made. It seems obvious to me\nthat some sort of very close connection is being implied here between these\ntwo characters although I cannot say right now what it is.\n\nFor that matter, since all of Severian's \"life\" is, for all intents and\npurposes, _in his pair of books_ (because he is after all a literary\ncharacter) perhaps the difference is not even _that_ stretched.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "jazzy_jeeves at att.net" }, "date": "2003-07-15T03:44:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Silkhorn's memory; Sev's book", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Howdy Crush. It's been a long time since I've posted to the group, but \nI've been following the discussion intermittently (as my limited time \nallows) and wanted to point something out: You quoted On Blue's Waters \n(hardback page 43) as follows:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"A copy of our book, which I meant to read during calms and the like, not so\nmuch to relearn the facts we had set down as to gently persuade my memory to\ndwell upon our conversations, and the conversations I had with Nettle, Moly,\nand others about him. You that read will not credit it, but I do not believe\nI have forgotten anything that Nettle and I put into our book, or that I\never will.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You then go on to say in pointing out the parallel with Severian that:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ". . . Horn limits his perfect memory to *events* [my emphasis] in his book . . ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This might be nit-picky in the extreme but I feel compelled to point it \nout anyway. Horn is not claiming his memory of *events* in the book to \nbe infallible; he is merely claiming that he has forgotten nothing of \nwhat he *wrote* in the book. These are two entirely different things. \n The actual events that occurred in Horn's final days and weeks aboard \nthe Whorl are most likely a confused jumble in Horn's mind. And there \nare major, gulf-sized holes in Horn's actual memory since he pieced the \nstory together from his and Nettle's memories, plus a variety of other \nsources, including his memories of what Silk (and others) told him. \n Some of the conversations, I believe, he even admits to making up \nwholesale based on who he knew to be present, and what those people most \nlikely said. \n\nI think the only real similarity between Horn and Severian (at least as \nfar as their abilities to remember) is a thematic one. Horn's memory \nisn't perfect -- he just claims to not have forgotten anything which he \nput into his book. That sounds almost oxymoronic, but I don't think it \nis. I don't even see is as abnormal, given the fact that he spent \nnearly every evening for (what I would guess to be) well over a decade \nwriting it and re-writing it and re-writing it again. It is his life's \nwork -- as opposed to being his vocation. There are stories I wrote in \njunior high that I still recall with extraordinary vividness because of \nthe energy I invested in them at the time. Writing something down on a \npiece of paper is extraordinarily powerful in its ability to imprint \nsomething strongly in memory.\n\nSeverian, on the other hand, does indeed make the claim of having an \ninfallible memory of *events* -- not merely an accurate memory of \nsomething he wrote down.\n\nTake that for what it's worth. :-)\n\nCharles" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "the.wynns at usa.net" }, "date": "2003-07-15T13:35:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Silkhorn's memory; Sev's book", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Charles takes Crush to task:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Howdy Crush. It's been a long time since I've posted to the group,\nbut I've been following the discussion intermittently (as my limited\ntime allows) and wanted to point something out: You quoted On\nBlue's Waters...You then go on to say in pointing out the parallel\nwith Severian that: \"Horn limits his perfect memory to *events*\n[my emphasis] in his book.\" ...Horn is not claiming his memory of\n*events* in the book to be infallible; he is merely claiming that he\nhas forgotten nothing of what he *wrote* in the book. These are\ntwo entirely different things. I think the only real similarity between\nHorn and Severian (at least as far as their abilities to remember) is a\nthematic one....I don't even see is as abnormal, given the fact that he\nspent nearly every evening for (what I would guess to be) well over a\ndecade writing it and re-writing it and re-writing it again. It is his\nlife's work -- as opposed to being his vocation...There are stories I\nwrote in junior high that I still recall with extraordinary vividness\nbecause of the energy I invested in them at the time. Writing\nsomething down on a piece of paper is extraordinarily powerful in its\nability to imprint something strongly in memory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush responds:\nHey Charles,\nThanks for the reply.\n\nI concur. Sev's and Horn's claims are thematically linked -- Horn does not\nclaim to have a generally eidetic memory. I also agree that had Horn not\nsaid anything, I would have never doubted that he remembered everything he\n\"put into\" \"The Book of Silk.\" By the same token, with Sev as a first-person\nnarrator, I would never have doubted, whatever his lies, that he remembered\nwithout error the events in which he took part. So why do they both -- \nparticularly Horn think anyone would not have believed them?\n\nI am saying this little claim of Horn's is surely a *parody* of Severian's\nclaim. tBotNS is Wolfe's most famous work. Probably among the top two most\nwell-remembered motifs of the story-telling in that book is Sev's\nconstant -- constant -- harping on his immutable memory.\n\nIn both cases we have a superfluous extolling of memory. Not an\nimpressive brag on Horn's part *except that he makes it at all.* It was not\nthe substance of the claims (except that they are both about memory), but\nthe choice to make them that I found striking.\n\nSo.... for me, I wonder, what is the connection between Sev and Horn that\nthey make superfluous claims about their memory.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-07-15T15:57:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Silkhorn's memory; Sev's book", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Civet replies:\n\nExcept for the fact that Horn has probably met only *one* other writer and \nseen *one* other original book (aside from his own) in his entire life. The \nthings we know about writers are not commonplace assumptions to him, and \nwould not be to his readers either. In fact, his readers would understand \nthe process even less.\n\nBeing a writer is a fairly special thing in this case, and perhaps it is \npartly vanity that makes him take this little excuse to remind his \naudience... and partly wanting to describe his love for the book he wrote to \na group of people he thinks can't possibly understand?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush responds:\n\nIn both cases we have a superfluous extolling of memory. Not an\nimpressive brag on Horn's part *except that he makes it at all.* It was not\nthe substance of the claims (except that they are both about memory), but\nthe choice to make them that I found striking." } ] } ] }