{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4082", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4082, "subject": "TBOTNS, Sev's last line", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2003-07-10T14:24:01+00:00", "last": "2003-07-10T19:31:04+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-07-10T14:24:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TBOTNS, Sev's last line", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew wrote:\nSeverian states that he sent one copy of the manuscript to the library at\nthe citadel and will cast the second - the copy we are reading - into the\nvoid.\n\nWouldn't a conscious effort at propaganda require a rather more active\neffort at publication and dissemination? Without that I can't see\nSeverain having contemporary politic motives as being credible. A concern\nfor history - one that rulers often have - looks more plausible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. I wasn't saying that I agreed with Clute's examination of The Book\nas a political document, I was just saying that he had published that more\nthan 12 years ago. FWIW.\n\nBut yes, the fact there are only two copies works against The Book as\npropaganda and returns it to the scale of confession, apology, and/or\nprivate autobiography.\n\nThe notes I gave about the wait for the New Sun also suggest The Book\ncannot be intended for the masses. (Then again, perhaps it isn't =mass=\npropaganda that is implied? What if it were just some kind of \"elite\"\npropaganda? Hmmm. So Father Inire . . . and Cybe and Racho . . . are the\nonly ones whose opinions matter? ) To further that, I should remind us\nall of Severian's last line in TBOTNS:\n\n\"To this account, I, Severian the Lame, Autarch, do set my hand in what\nshall be called the last year of the old sun.\"\n\nThus he does not think it will take a year to bring the White Fountain; so\nwhere is the time for the text to get out to the people?\n\nOTOH, maybe we are looking at this propaganda angle from the wrong end (I\nshould re-read the Clute, myself!). It is perhaps not so much a pre-New\nSun propaganda (with a \"use before deluge\" stamp) as a post-New Sun\npropaganda (\"use only after deluge\"): an explanation as to why so much\ndestruction was required to bring the New Sun, to a presumed target\naudience of otherwise happy citizens of the New Sun Commonwealth (clearly\nSeverian not realizing that the destruction would be near total, sweeping\nhis civilization away completely).\n\nWhich is pretty close to what you say about a ruler's concern for history,\njust a bit more immediate.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-07-10T19:31:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) TBOTNS, Sev's last line", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with pretty much all of the comments about The Book as a political \ndocument, there are a large number of independent factors that all work \nagainst The Book being effective in this way.\n\nMantis' comments lead me to think that it may be even more important to find \nan answer to another, related question: what were Severian's expectations, \nshould he succeed? I have commented before that up until a certain point in \nUotNS Severian seems downright naive about the potential destruction when \nthe New Sun comes. Or, if he knew about the destruction, then at the very \nleast he was naive about how people were going to react to it. This seems \nparticularly difficult to reconcile, given that Talos' play gave him all the \nforeshadowing he could possibly need - if he actually gave any thought to \nit.\n\nThe first major possibility is that he knew, and for whatever reason chose \nto gloss over this aspect in his account of his expectations. Without \nattempting to guess his motive for such a move, there are a couple of \ndifficulties that need to be resolved (and might point the way to his \nmotive). The first is that his projected readers (for the copy in the \nLibrary - the copy that he tossed into the void is another matter) are \nmostly people who will have already experienced the coming of the New Sun. \nThey will know full well what happened when the New Sun came, the only thing \nthey might be deceived about is whether Severian expected it. The second is, \ndid he expect the Library to survive the Deluge and be accessible to people \nunder the New Sun? [Side question: *Did* it survive, and *was* it \naccessible? I can only make a philosophical answer, which is no better than \na guess unless you happen to agree with my philosophical interpretation].\n\nThe second possibility is that he knew, and that he assumed everyone else \nwould know, and that everyone would agree to the necessity of these \nconsequences without qualms or any need to justify them. Being a torturer he \nmakes some odd assumptions about human nature sometimes. This avoids one of \nthe difficulties above, but still makes one wonder what good it does to put \nthe book in the Library when civilization is going to be destroyed. This is \nperhaps the least problematic explanation, but seems weak to me; even if he \nassumed everyone would see it his way, it would still seem to be worth a \nmention.\n\nThe last possibility I can think of is that he simply didn't know. Severian \nis a good critical thinker, but emotionally immature in some ways. He seems \nprone to a certain amount of \"wishful thinking\" where he simply chooses not \nto accept or examine certain things. His cherished coin from Vodalus and the \nsupposed letter from Thecla, or his dealings with Agia in general might be \nexamples of this.\n\nIn this I've repeated some points that Mantis and others have already \nbrought up, in the interest of keeping some kind of structure to the \nconversation. In a nutshell, I believe that the choices you make in \nanswering *this* question have a direct bearing on how you interpret the \nsupposed purpose of the book, precluding certain interpretations and opening \nup others.\n\nCivet" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian states that he sent one copy of the manuscript to the library at\nthe citadel and will cast the second - the copy we are reading - into the\nvoid.\n\nWouldn't a conscious effort at propaganda require a rather more active\neffort at publication and dissemination? Without that I can't see\nSeverain having contemporary politic motives as being credible. A \nconcern\nfor history - one that rulers often have - looks more plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right. I wasn't saying that I agreed with Clute's examination of The Book\nas a political document, I was just saying that he had published that more\nthan 12 years ago. FWIW.\n\nBut yes, the fact there are only two copies works against The Book as\npropaganda and returns it to the scale of confession, apology, and/or\nprivate autobiography.\n\nThe notes I gave about the wait for the New Sun also suggest The Book\ncannot be intended for the masses. (Then again, perhaps it isn't =mass=\npropaganda that is implied? What if it were just some kind of \"elite\"\npropaganda? Hmmm. So Father Inire . . . and Cybe and Racho . . . are the\nonly ones whose opinions matter? ) To further that, I should remind us\nall of Severian's last line in TBOTNS:\n\n\"To this account, I, Severian the Lame, Autarch, do set my hand in what\nshall be called the last year of the old sun.\"\n\nThus he does not think it will take a year to bring the White Fountain; so\nwhere is the time for the text to get out to the people?\n\nOTOH, maybe we are looking at this propaganda angle from the wrong end (I\nshould re-read the Clute, myself!). It is perhaps not so much a pre-New\nSun propaganda (with a \"use before deluge\" stamp) as a post-New Sun\npropaganda (\"use only after deluge\"): an explanation as to why so much\ndestruction was required to bring the New Sun, to a presumed target\naudience of otherwise happy citizens of the New Sun Commonwealth (clearly\nSeverian not realizing that the destruction would be near total, sweeping\nhis civilization away completely).\n\nWhich is pretty close to what you say about a ruler's concern for history,\njust a bit more immediate.\n\n=mantis=" } ] } ] }