{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4104", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4104, "subject": "The Green Man's restitution", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2003-07-20T01:25:26+00:00", "last": "2003-07-22T01:52:05+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-20T01:25:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Green Man's restitution", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All of this talk about Silk (the man who doesn't eat) put me back on \nthe track of a question that's been nagging me. How does the Green Man \nrepay Severian for setting him free? The rescue from the Ascians \ndoesn't count (the Green Man's own words) and he claims that he will \naid him again. Then, nothing. No more Green Man. In my mind there \nare three explanations for this. Wolfe forgot about the Green Man's \npromise, or decided not to bother with it (not a viable option for me), \nSeverian decided to omit any more mention of the Green Man for his own \nreasons (too close to the first, basically a cop-out), or the Green \nMan, being a master of the corridors of time has already aided Severian \nin his past (though it would be the Green Man's personal future). \n\"When\" in the text could this have happened, and what action could it \nbe?\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2003-07-21T20:52:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Green Man's restitution", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All of this talk about Silk (the man who doesn't eat) put me back on\nthe track of a question that's been nagging me. How does the Green Man\nrepay Severian for setting him free? The rescue from the Ascians\ndoesn't count (the Green Man's own words) and he claims that he will\naid him again. Then, nothing. No more Green Man. In my mind there\nare three explanations for this. Wolfe forgot about the Green Man's\npromise, or decided not to bother with it (not a viable option for me),\nSeverian decided to omit any more mention of the Green Man for his own\nreasons (too close to the first, basically a cop-out), or the Green\nMan, being a master of the corridors of time has already aided Severian\nin his past (though it would be the Green Man's personal future).\n\"When\" in the text could this have happened, and what action could it\nbe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This question has been bugging me for some time as well. \nThe Green Man promises to set Severian free when he is\nimprisoned, so we only need to look at times when he is\nimprisoned (although there are a lot of those). I am also\nconvinced that the Green Man's restitution happens before\nSeverian frees him, thus creating yet another time loop.\nWhen Severian is imprisoned in the antechamber, one of the \nother prisoners there sees a green face, which I am convinced\nis the Green Man looking for opportunities to set Severian\nfree. I think this shows that Wolfe hasn't just dropped \nthis thread. However, this can't be the time that the Green\nMan redeems his promise, since Severian gets out of the \nantechamber by himself (remembering Thecla's use of the\nhidden door's word of power). \n\nAny takers on this one?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Stone Ox (Peter S.)\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2003-07-21T21:26:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Green Man's restitution", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Stone Ox quoted Don and wrote:\nAll of this talk about Silk (the man who doesn't eat) put me back on\nthe track of a question that's been nagging me. How does the Green Man\nrepay Severian for setting him free? The rescue from the Ascians\ndoesn't count (the Green Man's own words) and he claims that he will\naid him again. Then, nothing. No more Green Man. In my mind there\nare three explanations for this. Wolfe forgot about the Green Man's\npromise, or decided not to bother with it (not a viable option for me),\nSeverian decided to omit any more mention of the Green Man for his own\nreasons (too close to the first, basically a cop-out), or the Green\nMan, being a master of the corridors of time has already aided Severian\nin his past (though it would be the Green Man's personal future).\n\"When\" in the text could this have happened, and what action could it\nbe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This question has been bugging me for some time as well.\nThe Green Man promises to set Severian free when he is\nimprisoned, so we only need to look at times when he is\nimprisoned (although there are a lot of those). I am also\nconvinced that the Green Man's restitution happens before\nSeverian frees him, thus creating yet another time loop.\nWhen Severian is imprisoned in the antechamber, one of the\nother prisoners there sees a green face, which I am convinced\nis the Green Man looking for opportunities to set Severian\nfree. I think this shows that Wolfe hasn't just dropped\nthis thread. However, this can't be the time that the Green\nMan redeems his promise, since Severian gets out of the\nantechamber by himself (remembering Thecla's use of the\nhidden door's word of power).\n\nAny takers on this one?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wasn't someone mentioning fairly recently that we don't know what happened\nduring Severian's Year as an Ascian Slave?\n\nOne of the few things we know about that period of Severian's Reign is that\nhe did not have the Claw (and thus no magical powers to help out when\nthings got rough).\n\nI guess I'm the only one who figures that the Green Man saved Severian's\nbacon at least once during that unmentionable year.\n\n(Then again, I'm the same lunatic who thinks that Severian the Cruel\nmarried Agia . . . )\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2003-07-21T21:51:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Green Man's restitution", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis, further to Stone Ox and Don's Green Man musings, writes:\n\n<>\n\nHmmm, it's been a while but I always thought that the Claw itself doesn't\nhave any magical powers per se, it was always Severian himself that had\nthem but it seemed on first blush to be the Claw because we do not realize\nuntil later in the series that Sev is the Concilliator. It was, e.g., Sev,\npre-Claw, who brought his dog back from the dead at the start of the first\nbook. I haven't read the passage in a bit and don't have the book to hand,\nbut I thought that was the point of Severian's 'every grain of sand, every\nthorn' (paraphrase) soliloquy upon the beach.\n\n<>\n\nI like the Greem Man as Silkhorn concept just for it's creativity, but I'm\nnot sure if Wolfe really meant that. I always think of the Green Man sort\nof as Tom Bombadil, a character inserted purely as an interested red\nherring unconnected to anything else. I also think it's not impossible\nthat Wolfe either forgot this or the second Green Man scene got edited out.\nBut in support of the \"forgetting\" theory it always bugged me that the\nslave Sev meets asks Severian to mention him to Malrubius and to ask\nMalrubius a question and, when Sev later meets up with Malrubius again the\nmatter, as far as the reader knows, never comes up again....\n\n- Shell" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-22T01:52:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Green Man's restitution", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 02:51 PM, cilluff1 at optonline.net wrote:\n I also think it's not impossible\nthat Wolfe either forgot this or the second Green Man scene got edited \nout.\nBut in support of the \"forgetting\" theory it always bugged me that the\nslave Sev meets asks Severian to mention him to Malrubius and to ask\nMalrubius a question and, when Sev later meets up with Malrubius again \nthe\nmatter, as far as the reader knows, never comes up again...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don (referring to himself, as pleases him, in the third person) replies,\n\nI think you mean Palaemon rather than Malrubius. I don't think Wolfe \nforgot to have Severian mention the slave to Palaemon. I always took \nit that Severian took it upon himself to answer for his master and that \nwas the end of it. Of course I also think Severian and Palaemon are \nessentially the same person so take my opinion for what it's worth to \nyou." } ] } ] }