{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/4112", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 4112, "subject": "Wolfe Walks - my rant", "messages": 12, "voices": 6, "first": "2003-07-26T03:34:39+00:00", "last": "2003-07-28T10:37:18+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-26T03:34:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe Walks - my rant", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 11:58 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nLadies and Gentlemen, may I have your attention: Gene Wolfe has left \nthe building.\n\nWolfe has left the Odyssey workshop prematurely; his explanation is on \nthe Locus Website.\n\nhttp://www.locusmag.com/2003/Features/Letters07.html\n\n--Blattid" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is utterly unbelievable. What a pathetic lot of juvenile, \nungrateful, UNKNOWING, clueless idiots. I don't even know where to \nstart. How about why bother to take a writing workshop if you can't \ntake honest criticism? It pains me, pains me deeply to read that Mr. \nWolfe was treated that way. He is a writer of the first caliber, a \ntruly unknown legend. Those hacks should be grateful he even bothered \nto read their most likely unreadable tripe. Personally, I don't have \nmuch use for writing workshops. I think writing is far too individual \nan art and the workshops are full of whiny idiots like these. I'll end \nthis now with my paraphrase of Bukowski- Where is something \ninteresting to read? Wait. Don't tell me. I know. You wrote it.\n\n\nSadly true\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2003-07-26T10:35:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe Walks - my rant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None of us could be happy to hear this. But, at the least, we can try to be \nas understanding as Wolfe himself, who was there and has more reason to be \noffended than anyone (to understate).\n\nMostly I am interested (and impressed) by the authors he chose to praise in \nthe workshop. In time we'll hear from everyone their merits and faults, but \nright now we have the chance to find and read them and decide for ourselves \nahead of popular opinion. I suggest we take advantage of the opportunity and \ngrab hold of (and discuss) these stories before they are chewed up and spit \nout by other reviewers.\n\nAs soon as we find out where to find them, anyway.\n\n- Civet" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is utterly unbelievable. What a pathetic lot of juvenile, ungrateful, \nUNKNOWING, clueless idiots. I don't even know where to start. How about \nwhy bother to take a writing workshop if you can't take honest criticism? \nIt pains me, pains me deeply to read that Mr. Wolfe was treated that way. \nHe is a writer of the first caliber, a truly unknown legend. Those hacks \nshould be grateful he even bothered to read their most likely unreadable \ntripe. Personally, I don't have much use for writing workshops. I think \nwriting is far too individual an art and the workshops are full of whiny \nidiots like these. I'll end this now with my paraphrase of Bukowski- \nWhere is something interesting to read? Wait. Don't tell me. I know. \nYou wrote it.\n\n\nSadly true\nDon\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-07-26T12:22:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe Walks - my rant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I was wondering was how much I'd pay for a week in a writing class \nwith Gene Wolfe.\n\n___" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 03:35, Chris wrote:\nNone of us could be happy to hear this. But, at the least, we can try to be \nas understanding as Wolfe himself, who was there and has more reason to be \noffended than anyone (to understate).\n\nMostly I am interested (and impressed) by the authors he chose to praise in \nthe workshop. In time we'll hear from everyone their merits and faults, but \nright now we have the chance to find and read them and decide for ourselves \nahead of popular opinion. I suggest we take advantage of the opportunity and \ngrab hold of (and discuss) these stories before they are chewed up and spit \nout by other reviewers.\n\nAs soon as we find out where to find them, anyway.\n\n- Civet" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That is utterly unbelievable. What a pathetic lot of juvenile, ungrateful, \nUNKNOWING, clueless idiots. I don't even know where to start. How about \nwhy bother to take a writing workshop if you can't take honest criticism? \nIt pains me, pains me deeply to read that Mr. Wolfe was treated that way. \nHe is a writer of the first caliber, a truly unknown legend. Those hacks \nshould be grateful he even bothered to read their most likely unreadable \ntripe. Personally, I don't have much use for writing workshops. I think \nwriting is far too individual an art and the workshops are full of whiny \nidiots like these. I'll end this now with my paraphrase of Bukowski- \nWhere is something interesting to read? Wait. Don't tell me. I know. \nYou wrote it.\n\n\nSadly true\nDon\n\n\n--" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_________________________________________________________________\nThe new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* \nhttp://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-07-26T12:26:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe Walks - my rant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took a friend of mine to lunch yesterday to celebrate her first book being\naccepted for publication by Random. She found the workshop thing very\nvaluable. Before the workshop, she had a draft manuscript and scattered\ncomments on it from all over the place, but nothing very informed. The main\nvalue of the workshop was *useful reading*, to use her phrase. She was told\nthe manuscript was totally unpublishable, for this reason and that, and that\nshe would have to rewrite it. So she spent a couple of years rewriting from\nscratch, taking note of the specific criticisms, and ended up published.\n\nShe believes her work experience as a speech-writer, policy analyst etc for\nvarious senior politicians and bureaucrats was very helpful in being able to\nuse criticism effectively: she'd spent years being told, brusquely, that\npieces were no good & to rewrite them. But others in the workshop found it\nmuch harder to handle.\n\nBeing able to use criticism is one of those things you get from experience,\nif you're lucky. Sounds like these people have a way to go." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-07-26T13:16:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe Walks - my rant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I say, I am wondering how much I would pay for a week's writing class\nwith Gene Wolfe. The answer is at least a couple of hundred dollars,\nperhaps more.\n\nI wonder further. I wonder how much how many people on this mailing list\nwould be willing to pay for a week's writing class with Gene Wolfe. How\nmany people here would be willing to pay two hundred dollars for a\nweek's writing class with Gene Wolfe? If the answer is ten or twelve, \ndon't you think that $2000 or $2400 could pay the Wolfe's travel, food\nand hotel expenses and perhaps even afford them a small fee? All work\nwould have to be done on a volunteer basis, of course. Do people who\nknow the Wolfes think they might be interested?\n\nI would be willing to devote time and work to this, if there are other \npeople who are willing to devote time and work to this.\n\nWhat does everyone think?\n\n\nJ.\n\n___" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 05:26, Andrew Bollen wrote:\nI took a friend of mine to lunch yesterday to celebrate her first book being\naccepted for publication by Random. She found the workshop thing very\nvaluable. Before the workshop, she had a draft manuscript and scattered\ncomments on it from all over the place, but nothing very informed. The main\nvalue of the workshop was *useful reading*, to use her phrase. She was told\nthe manuscript was totally unpublishable, for this reason and that, and that\nshe would have to rewrite it. So she spent a couple of years rewriting from\nscratch, taking note of the specific criticisms, and ended up published.\n\nShe believes her work experience as a speech-writer, policy analyst etc for\nvarious senior politicians and bureaucrats was very helpful in being able to\nuse criticism effectively: she'd spent years being told, brusquely, that\npieces were no good & to rewrite them. But others in the workshop found it\nmuch harder to handle.\n\nBeing able to use criticism is one of those things you get from experience,\nif you're lucky. Sounds like these people have a way to go.\n\n\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at internode.on.net" }, "date": "2003-07-26T13:26:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe Walks - my rant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Josh wrote:\nAs I say, I am wondering how much I would pay for a week's writing class\nwith Gene Wolfe. The answer is at least a couple of hundred dollars,\nperhaps more.\n\nI wonder further. I wonder how much how many people on this mailing list\nwould be willing to pay for a week's writing class with Gene Wolfe. How\nmany people here would be willing to pay two hundred dollars for a\nweek's writing class with Gene Wolfe? If the answer is ten or twelve,\ndon't you think that $2000 or $2400 could pay the Wolfe's travel, food\nand hotel expenses and perhaps even afford them a small fee? All work\nwould have to be done on a volunteer basis, of course. Do people who\nknow the Wolfes think they might be interested?\n\nI would be willing to devote time and work to this, if there are other\npeople who are willing to devote time and work to this.\n\nWhat does everyone think?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep, I'd be in it. Problem is, I'm in Australia. Maybe some kind of on-line\nthing as well? Wouldn't have to be very interactive or hi-tech to be useful.\nI'd also be willing to put some time into it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-07-26T14:08:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe Walks - my rant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 06:26, Andrew Bollen wrote:\nAs I say, I am wondering how much I would pay for a week's writing class\nwith Gene Wolfe. The answer is at least a couple of hundred dollars," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wonder further. I wonder how much how many people on this mailing list\nwould be willing to pay for a week's writing class with Gene Wolfe. How\nmany people here would be willing to pay two hundred dollars for a\nweek's writing class with Gene Wolfe? If the answer is ten or twelve,\ndon't you think that $2000 or $2400 could pay the Wolfe's travel, food\nand hotel expenses and perhaps even afford them a small fee? All work\nwould have to be done on a volunteer basis, of course. Do people who\nknow the Wolfes think they might be interested?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would be willing to devote time and work to this, if there are other\npeople who are willing to devote time and work to this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What does everyone think?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yep, I'd be in it. Problem is, I'm in Australia. Maybe some kind of on-line\nthing as well? Wouldn't have to be very interactive or hi-tech to be useful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very easy to arrange. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd also be willing to put some time into it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds good. Who else?\n\n\n\nJ.\n\n___" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-07-26T15:28:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe Walks - my rant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 07:38, James Wynn wrote:\nI don't have anything to workshopped right now but I would certainly pay a\ncouple hundred just to hang out with Gene Wolfe and the rest of you guys." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unfortunately, my experience with organizing these things (not workshops but\nevents and stuff) is that the cost of just a *location* to hold an event\nlike this for just a *weekend* (with food not necessarily) included could\nnot be had for less than $80-$120 per person -- if you can guarantee 50 or\nmore people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking less. Like, free if possible. If we are talking ten or \ntwelve people and an internet hookup I could do it in my house. There\nare probably better places, in fact I can think of a couple. \n\nI could also feed twelve people for a week for pretty cheap, at least\none meal a day, snacks and beverages." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Also, a workshop is *a lot* of work for the teacher -- very\nreading intensive; harder than a normal class I would think. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am thinking more, like, hang out and talk with Gene Wolfe about\nwriting or about whatever he wants to talk about.I'd hope that he\nand Rosemary would have a good time, and that he'd not do any more\nwork than he wanted to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I'd be\nembarrassed to ask any writer of marketable merit to do it for just 2 or 3\nthousand - even if it were just a dozen or so writers he would be working\nwith." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure. I don't think we could make it worth his while; I think his time\nis worth probably a lot more than he is getting for it! I am wondering \nif he might do it if it didn't cost him anything and we could gaurantee \nhim (as we could) an absolutely attentive audience.\n\nIf Wolfe is uninterested, the project stops right there,obviously. Some\nof you know him personally; why doesn't one of you ask him? If he is \neven conditionally interested, then we will move on. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus the tuition for the Odyssey workshop was $1400!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was also more than just Gene Wolfe for a week, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Probably a very\nreasonable rate. I don't intend to throw cold-water on a wonderful plan at\nits inception. I just wouldn't like to see a good idea squelched by\nunreasonable expectations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed. Let's get the show-stoppers out of the way first." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the otherhand, a *readers* workshop where the participants were\nresponsible for reviewing and discussing each other's works; with, say, a\nseries of \"book club\" type meetings to discuss various Wolfe works; with\nWolfe in attendance. This is beginning to sound more like a Gene Wolfe\nConvention. I kinda like that idea too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So do I, though I like the first idea better.\n\nI'd be willing to do work on this also.\n\n\n\n\nJ.\n\n___" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "silk tree", "address": "albizia at feafaroth.org" }, "date": "2003-07-26T15:09:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe Walks - my rant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hope something could be arranged for the Chicago area. please please \nplease. After all, doesn't he live around here?\n\nHmmm, rather than trying to muster up your own con-like event, why not \nwork with WindyCon and see about a panel (or something more extended \nthan a panel?) there? I've seen him at WindyCon before. That way a lot \nof the logistics will already be taken care of.\n\nmimosa (who lives in Chicago)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2003-07-26T15:45:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe Walks - my rant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 08:09, silk tree wrote:\nI hope something could be arranged for the Chicago area. please please \nplease. After all, doesn't he live around here?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmm, rather than trying to muster up your own con-like event, why not \nwork with WindyCon and see about a panel (or something more extended \nthan a panel?) there? I've seen him at WindyCon before. That way a lot \nof the logistics will already be taken care of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What you are talking about and what I am talking about are two different\nthings.\n\nYou can do whatever you like, as long as you are willing to do the work.\n\nI am willing to do a lot of work for this, including catering meals if\nnecessary (I am a skilled amateur chef), but only if it happens in my\nhome town. \n\nIf people decide to do it elsewhere, best of luck to all of you! Enjoy\nyourselves! But it will be happening without me.\n\n\n\n\nJ.\n\n___" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lisa Schaffer-Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2003-07-26T19:32:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe Walks - my rant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 03:35 AM, Chris wrote:\nNone of us could be happy to hear this. But, at the least, we can try \nto be as understanding as Wolfe himself, who was there and has more \nreason to be offended than anyone (to understate)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don replies:\n\nYeah I know. I was just angry, which is why I labeled it a rant in \nforewarning. It sounds like something good might spring from this \nthough. I hope that at least those who know him personally will convey \nhow much he is respected as a writer by everyone on this list. I \nstill don't think much of writing workshops but who knows, maybe that's \nmy loss." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2003-07-28T10:37:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe Walks - my rant", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 26/07/2003 15:38:42 James Wynn wrote:\nI don't have anything to workshopped right now but I would certainly pay \na\ncouple hundred just to hang out with Gene Wolfe and the rest of you guys.\n\nUnfortunately, my experience with organizing these things (not workshops \nbut\nevents and stuff) is that the cost of just a *location* to hold an event\nlike this for just a *weekend* (with food not necessarily) included could\nnot be had for less than $80-$120 per person -- if you can guarantee 50 \nor\nmore people. Also, a workshop is *a lot* of work for the teacher -- very\nreading intensive; harder than a normal class I would think. I'd be\nembarrassed to ask any writer of marketable merit to do it for just 2 or \n3\nthousand - even if it were just a dozen or so writers he would be working\nwith.\n\nThus the tuition for the Odyssey workshop was $1400! Probably a very\nreasonable rate. I don't intend to throw cold-water on a wonderful plan \nat\nits inception. I just wouldn't like to see a good idea squelched by\nunreasonable expectations.\n\nOn the otherhand, a *readers* workshop where the participants were\nresponsible for reviewing and discussing each other's works; with, say, a\nseries of \"book club\" type meetings to discuss various Wolfe works; with\nWolfe in attendance. This is beginning to sound more like a Gene Wolfe\nConvention. I kinda like that idea too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.arvonfoundation.org/\n\nJust 'cause I'm familliar with it.\n\nBasic open course fee for 4.5 day residential course including \naccommodation, tuition and food is UKP 395 - at todays rates that's USD \n640 or EUR 558.\n\nThe stunning scenery of the locations comes free. ;-)\n\n\nMatthew\n(who once pushed a car trough snow half way up the fell from Lumb Bank)" } ] } ] }