Subject: Re: (urth) Wolfe Walks - my rant

From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 03:34:39 +0000

On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 11:58 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

> Ladies and Gentlemen, may I have your attention: Gene Wolfe has left 
> the building.
>
> Wolfe has left the Odyssey workshop prematurely; his explanation is on 
> the Locus Website.
>
> http://www.locusmag.com/2003/Features/Letters07.html
>
> --Blattid
>
>

That is utterly unbelievable.  What a pathetic lot of juvenile, 
ungrateful, UNKNOWING, clueless idiots.  I don't even know where to 
start.  How about why  bother to take a writing workshop if you can't 
take honest criticism?  It pains me, pains me deeply to read that Mr. 
Wolfe was treated that way.  He is a writer of the first caliber, a 
truly unknown legend.  Those hacks should be grateful he even bothered 
to read their most likely unreadable tripe.  Personally, I don't have 
much use for writing workshops.  I think writing is far too individual 
an art and the workshops are full of whiny idiots like these.  I'll end 
this now with my paraphrase of Bukowski-  Where is something 
interesting to read?   Wait.  Don't tell me.  I know. You wrote it.

Sadly true
Don

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:35:02 +0000

None of us could be happy to hear this. But, at the least, we can try to be 
as understanding as Wolfe himself, who was there and has more reason to be 
offended than anyone (to understate).

Mostly I am interested (and impressed) by the authors he chose to praise in 
the workshop. In time we'll hear from everyone their merits and faults, but 
right now we have the chance to find and read them and decide for ourselves 
ahead of popular opinion. I suggest we take advantage of the opportunity and 
grab hold of (and discuss) these stories before they are chewed up and spit 
out by other reviewers.

As soon as we find out where to find them, anyway.

- Civet

>That is utterly unbelievable.  What a pathetic lot of juvenile, ungrateful, 
>UNKNOWING, clueless idiots.  I don't even know where to start.  How about 
>why  bother to take a writing workshop if you can't take honest criticism?  
>It pains me, pains me deeply to read that Mr. Wolfe was treated that way.  
>He is a writer of the first caliber, a truly unknown legend.  Those hacks 
>should be grateful he even bothered to read their most likely unreadable 
>tripe.  Personally, I don't have much use for writing workshops.  I think 
>writing is far too individual an art and the workshops are full of whiny 
>idiots like these.  I'll end this now with my paraphrase of Bukowski-  
>Where is something interesting to read?   Wait.  Don't tell me.  I know. 
>You wrote it.
>
>
>Sadly true
>Don
>
>
>--

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:22:31 +0000

What I was wondering was how much I'd pay for a week in a writing class 
with Gene Wolfe.

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From: Andrew Bollen <abollen at internode.on.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:26:29 +0000

I took a friend of mine to lunch yesterday to celebrate her first book being
accepted for publication by Random. She found the workshop thing very
valuable. Before the workshop, she had a draft manuscript and scattered
comments on it from all over the place, but nothing very informed. The main
value of the workshop was *useful reading*, to use her phrase. She was told
the manuscript was totally unpublishable, for this reason and that, and that
she would have to rewrite it. So she spent a couple of years rewriting from
scratch, taking note of the specific criticisms, and ended up published.

She believes her work experience as a speech-writer, policy analyst etc for
various senior politicians and bureaucrats was very helpful in being able to
use criticism effectively: she'd spent years being told, brusquely, that
pieces were no good & to rewrite them. But others in the workshop found it
much harder to handle.

Being able to use criticism is one of those things you get from experience,
if you're lucky. Sounds like these people have a way to go.

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 13:16:36 +0000

As I say, I am wondering how much I would pay for a week's writing class
with Gene Wolfe. The answer is at least a couple of hundred dollars,
perhaps more.

I wonder further. I wonder how much how many people on this mailing list
would be willing to pay for a week's writing class with Gene Wolfe. How
many people here would be willing to pay two hundred dollars for a
week's writing class with Gene Wolfe? If the answer is ten or twelve, 
don't you think that $2000 or $2400 could pay the Wolfe's travel, food
and hotel expenses and perhaps even afford them a small fee? All work
would have to be done on a volunteer basis, of course. Do people who
know the Wolfes think they might be interested?

I would be willing to devote time and work to this, if there are other 
people who are willing to devote time and work to this.

What does everyone think?

J.

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From: Andrew Bollen <abollen at internode.on.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 13:26:00 +0000

> What does everyone think?

Yep, I'd be in it. Problem is, I'm in Australia. Maybe some kind of on-line
thing as well? Wouldn't have to be very interactive or hi-tech to be useful.
I'd also be willing to put some time into it.

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:08:53 +0000

> thing as well? Wouldn't have to be very interactive or hi-tech to be useful.

Very easy to arrange.  

> I'd also be willing to put some time into it.

Sounds good. Who else?

J.

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:28:50 +0000

On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 07:38, James Wynn wrote:
> I don't have anything to workshopped right now but I would certainly pay a
> couple hundred just to hang out with Gene Wolfe and the rest of you guys.

> Unfortunately, my experience with organizing these things (not workshops but
> events and stuff) is that the cost of  just a *location* to hold an event
> like this for just a *weekend* (with food not necessarily) included could
> not be had for less than $80-$120 per person -- if you can guarantee 50 or
> more people.

I was thinking less. Like, free if possible. If we are talking ten or 
twelve people and an internet hookup I could do it in my house. There
are probably better places, in fact I can think of a couple. 

I could also feed twelve people for a week for pretty cheap, at least
one meal a day, snacks and beverages.

>   Also, a workshop is *a lot* of work for the teacher -- very
> reading intensive; harder than a normal class I would think. 

I am thinking more, like, hang out and talk with Gene Wolfe about
writing or about whatever he wants to talk about.I'd hope that he
and Rosemary would have a good time, and that he'd not do any more
work than he wanted to.

>                                                                    I'd be
> embarrassed to ask any writer of marketable merit to do it for just 2 or 3
> thousand - even if it were just a dozen or so writers he would be working
> with.

Sure. I don't think we could make it worth his while; I think his time
is worth probably a lot more than he is getting for it! I am wondering 
if he might do it if it didn't cost him anything and we could gaurantee 
him (as we could) an absolutely attentive audience.

If Wolfe is uninterested, the project stops right there,obviously. Some
of you know him personally; why doesn't one of you ask him? If he is 
even conditionally interested, then we will move on. 

> Thus the tuition for the Odyssey workshop was $1400!

It was also more than just Gene Wolfe for a week, right?

>                                                         Probably a very
> reasonable rate. I don't intend to throw cold-water on a wonderful plan at
> its inception. I just wouldn't like to see a good idea squelched by
> unreasonable expectations.

Indeed. Let's get the show-stoppers out of the way first.

> On the otherhand, a *readers* workshop where the participants were
> responsible for reviewing and discussing each other's works; with, say, a
> series of "book club" type meetings to discuss various Wolfe works; with
> Wolfe in attendance. This is beginning to sound more like a Gene Wolfe
> Convention. I kinda like that idea too.

So do I, though I like the first idea better.

I'd be willing to do work on this also.

J.

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From: silk tree <albizia at feafaroth.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:09:02 +0000

I hope something could be arranged for the Chicago area. please please 
please. After all, doesn't he live around here?

Hmmm, rather than trying to muster up your own con-like event, why not 
work with WindyCon and see about  a panel (or something more extended 
than a panel?) there? I've seen him at WindyCon before. That way a lot 
of the logistics will already be taken care of.

mimosa (who lives in Chicago)

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:45:41 +0000

> of the logistics will already be taken care of.

What you are talking about and what I am talking about are two different
things.

You can do whatever you like, as long as you are willing to do the work.

I am willing to do a lot of work for this, including catering meals if
necessary (I am a skilled amateur chef), but only if it happens in my
home town. 

If people decide to do it elsewhere, best of luck to all of you! Enjoy
yourselves! But it will be happening without me.

J.

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From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 19:32:56 +0000

On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 03:35 AM, Chris wrote:

> None of us could be happy to hear this. But, at the least, we can try 
> to be as understanding as Wolfe himself, who was there and has more 
> reason to be offended than anyone (to understate).
>

Don replies:

Yeah I know.  I was just angry, which is why I labeled it  a rant in 
forewarning.  It sounds like something good might spring from this 
though.  I hope that at least those who know him personally will convey 
how much he is respected as a writer by  everyone on this list.  I 
still don't think much of writing workshops but who knows, maybe that's 
my loss.

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 10:37:18 +0000

On 26/07/2003 15:38:42 James Wynn wrote:

>more people. Also, a workshop is *a lot* of work for the teacher -- very
>reading intensive; harder than a normal class I would think. I'd be
>Thus the tuition for the Odyssey workshop was $1400! Probably a very

http://www.arvonfoundation.org/

Just 'cause I'm familliar with it.

Basic open course fee for 4.5 day residential course including 
accommodation, tuition and food is UKP 395   -  at todays rates that's USD 
640 or EUR 558.

The stunning scenery of the locations comes free.  ;-)

Matthew
(who once pushed a car trough snow half way up the fell from Lumb Bank)

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