Subject: (urth) Proposed Gene Wolfe Symposium

From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:35:48 +0000

Don writes:
>
> Yeah I know.  I was just angry, which is why I labeled it  a rant in 
> forewarning.  It sounds like something good might spring from this 
> though.  I hope that at least those who know him personally will convey 
> how much he is respected as a writer by  everyone on this list.  I 
> still don't think much of writing workshops but who knows, maybe that's 
> my loss.

Hey Don,

How much would you pay to hang out with Gene Wolfe for a week and talk
about whatever he wanted to talk about? I am really getting away from
the workshop concept: since it is not conceivable that we will have 
enough money to offer any writer a reasonable fee, I want this to be
much more fun than it is work for the writer. Few people will turn 
down an all-expenses paid vacation. If it is actually an attempt to
get them to work for free or cheap, many people will resent the attempt
and not want to have anything to do with it.

By the way, I am discussing this idea with some of my friends and
associates, and the feeling seems to be that it is an idea with 
some general potential. 

Here is what I would like to happen right now: people on this list
who would be willing to pay approximately $200 to hang out with Gene
Wolfe for a week should sound off. People who are willing to pay 
approximately $50 to participate in the electronic real-time link 
that will be set up during each session should also sound off, and 
would someone who knows Gene Wolfe personally please ask him what he
thinks of the idea and pass that on to the list?

Anyone who has any suggestions that do not involve doing something
completely different in Chicago or somewhere else should also please
speak and not hold their peace.

Or we can return to wrangling over minutiae. That is always an option.

J.

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:18:18 +0000

Errrr. Josh? Where *do* you live?

-- Crush

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Geller" <brunians at brunians.org>

> Wolfe for a week should sound off. 

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:48:55 +0000

Here's a detail that might make this more attractive as a general
proposal:

Everything in the sessions will be recorded, transcribed, marketed and
(if possible) published, with any profits to be split 50/50 between the
author and the entity doing the symposiums.

There are a lot of writers who don't get anything like the respect they
deserve because they have been classified as SF writers, and most SF
fans don't like them for whatever reason. Wolfe, Crowley and Patricia
Anthony are the three that leap to mind; I am sure that there are
others. 

.

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:49:55 +0000

The center of the World, of course.

East San Jose.

But really, this could be done anywhere in the Bay Area.

It's centrally located!

J.

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From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:31:59 +0000

> Or we can return to wrangling over minutiae. That is always an option.

It's a good idea in theory.  I would imagine there would have to be 
some really strong ground rules to keep Mr. Wolfe from being 
overwhelmed, and there's the question of where it would be so that the 
most people could attend.  I also have my doubts whether he'd be into 
it.  If those issues are addressed, I'm all for it.  Maybe it could be 
coincided with some event that Mr. Wolfe is interested in attending?

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From: Lisa Schaffer-Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:36:48 +0000

> But really, this could be done anywhere in the Bay Area.

Don pipes in:

I'm in Santa Cruz.  That's two.  But this place is mondo expensive, 
even to visit.  Merging this idea with a convention sounds ideal.

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:12:44 +0000

On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 13:31, Lisa Schaffer-Doggett wrote:

> overwhelmed, 

Absolutely.

>           and there's the question of where it would be so that the 
> most people could attend.  

If I am to have anything to do with it, it will be in the Bay Area, or
at least the first one will be.

If someone else wants to do it without me, somewhere else, please do
go ahead!

>                            I also have my doubts whether he'd be into 
> it.  

Hopefully at some point we will know. And then I will either start doing
some actual work on the project, or I will shut up and go back to 
shaking my head sadly while y'all argue as to whether Hyacinth was a
male chem or whether Gene Wolfe has a perfect memory.

.

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:22:26 +0000

> even to visit. 

I am thinking of ways to make it much less expensive.

Providing one fine meal a day, snacks and beverages will help.

Can't do much about transportation costs, but I do have quite a bit
of floor space in my house, if anyone is coming who is OK with sleeping
on people's floors. I would be willing, since we are talking about
limiting this to 12 real-time participants, to put up at least some of
them. I'd provide breakfast for anyone in the house.

> Merging this idea with a convention sounds ideal.

I tend not to agree.

Perhaps doing this for a weekend, as opposed to a whole week, might be
for the best, at least for the first time or two times.

Anyone who does mention this to Gene Wolfe should please ask him to set
out every condition that he can think of. Anyone else who can think of
suggestions to make something like this perfectly comfortable for the
writer and reasonably comfortable for the other participants should also
feel free to tell me about it. Send me private email if you don't want
to say it on the list.

.

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:57:58 +0000

LOL What sort of things do you think people will talk about at the
symposium?
;-)

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:30:53 +0000

Whatever Gene Wolfe wants to talk about, is the plan. This event is for
the writer more than it is for the other participant, though I hope and
expect that they will be finding it worthwhile.

I got really pissed off hearing about how Wolfe was treated. I prefer
doing things to talking about things, as a general rule.

J.

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:32:00 +0000

I would definitely be willing to participate. The timing and location would 
be important, of course.

>Anthony are the three that leap to mind; I am sure that there are

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 22:12:00 +0000

Assuming Gene Wolfe is interested in doing this, timing is very open and
would be arranged for convenience, with (as I mentioned) the writer's 
convenience coming before the other participant's convenience, though
hopefully we would make everybody reasonably happy.

J.

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 22:53:11 +0000

Well, all things being equal, I'm in.

-- Crush

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:35:43 +0000

That's great.

Hopefully Gene Wolfe will let us know under what conditions he would be 
willing to do this, and I can get to work.

J.

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From: silk tree <albizia at feafaroth.org>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:40:04 +0000

I would be interested in a Wolfe symposium or even a symposium of 
Obscure but excellent authors on order of Wolfe and Crowley. This year 
is bad for me because I'm not sure I could raise the money to travel to 
San Jose. If this actually does happen, I hope there is a chance of 
making it an annual event, or perhaps at least every so often type of 
event. (or maybe we could invite different authors every year?)

Btw, I did not mean to offend Josh by suggesting a con event. I was 
just trying to make logistics easier. Good luck in your plans.

mimosa

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:46:36 +0000

On Sun, 2003-07-27 at 07:40, silk tree wrote:

> San Jose. 

I doubt strongly that it will happen this year. If and when I do start
doing the actual work on this, I will be asking for input from people
who have said that they might want to go. There's no reason not to plan
it for the convenience of as many people as possible.

>         If this actually does happen, I hope there is a chance of 

Either or both would be great with me. But first, of course, I would
like to do it one time. If it works, and I don't lose any money, and
I don't see why it shouldn't be an every-so-often event.

> Btw, I did not mean to offend Josh by suggesting a con event.

You didn't!

>                                                       I was 
> just trying to make logistics easier.

Please, if you want to do the same thing doing in Chicago sometime,
I think it would be great. If this is successful, I think that people
will be doing it all over.

> Good luck in your plans.

Thank you!

J.

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From: Brandon Mason <suck_at_life at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:43:49 +0000

I would like to attend.  I am located in Kentucky, and
I could see myself taking a bus as long as the ride
wasn't lets say over 40 hours?  $200.00 seems more
than fair to me, and I would probably be willing to
pay more than that if necessary.  But, if there is
anyone else that would want to go (12 person limit
right?) they could have my place.  I'm extremely
interested in this, but I don't want to knock anyone
else out of getting to go that wants to.  Especially
if they aren't that far away from where this would be
held at.

-BM

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:19:30 +0000

> if they aren't that far away from where this would be

I think, if it happens at all, it is going to be the first twelve 
people to put a deposit down. Either that or some kind of lottery.

As always, I welcome comments and input.

J.

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <katbarx at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:52:47 +0000

I was going to say something about this and then forgot.

While I would very much like to be a part of something like this, and in 
fact live in the
right part of the world - the east bay to be semi-precise --  in fact, my 
beloved Spousal
Overunit went to hiskul in East San Jose - I do not believe it likely to 
happen.

My expectation is that, confronted with the suggestion of such a thing, Mr. 
Wolfe is
likely to regard it as the concoction of a gaggle of hero-worshipping 
fanboys (and
-girls), and to conclude that his gradually decreasing store of time would 
be
better spent working on the continuation of Latro's tale. Quite rightly, in 
my opinion.

Still, if I'm totally wrong about this and you convince him, count me in.

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 16:40:20 +0000

> fact live in the right part of the world - the east bay to be semi-precise 
> --  in fact, my beloved Spousal Overunit went to hiskul in East San
> Jose - I do not believe it likely to happen.

For your information, I live in a three bedroom house with a big yard
and garden in a very nice, very middle class, very quiet neighborhood.

There are rough neighborhoods in East San Jose,  some of them not too 
far away. Mine, however, is very quiet and peaceful. 

I am sorry. There really is no polite way to say 'fuck you, white boy'.

I am ashamed.

> Wolfe is likely to regard it as the concoction of a gaggle of 
> hero-worshippin fanboys (and -girls), 

Thank you for your encouragement and support.
 
> Still, if I'm totally wrong about this and you convince him, count me in.

If this thing works at all, it will be done either on a first come,
first served basis, or by a lottery.

In either case you will have the same chance as everybody else to
participate.

.

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:49:33 +0000

You astonish me.

There is no polite way to say "fuck you, jew boy" either, but the fact that
you are presumably jewish does not give you a free pass to deal out racial
insults like this.

You owe the whole list an apology.

    hartshorn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh Geller" brunians at brunians.org

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:08:05 +0000

> You astonish me.

Yeah, I astonish myself sometimes.

> you are presumably jewish does not give you a free pass to deal out racial

What does being a Jew have to do with anything? I am, in fact, 
ethnically ashkenazi, but everyone who sees me considers me to
be a white person, as I consider myself to be a white person.

Ashkenazi are all pretty white, and about half of us aren't even 
a little bit middle-eastern looking.

> You owe the whole list an apology.

I don't see that. I didn't insult the whole list. I insulted Dan,
and I have apologized to Dan.

If you feel insulted by my insulting Dan, I suppose it doesn't cost
me anything to apologize to you. I'm sorry, Andy. 

.

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From: William Ansley <wansley at warwick.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 04:58:15 +0000

Well we've had an unpleasantness on this list and once again I am 
extremely impressed by the enormous self-restraint and impeccable 
good manners of the vast majority of members of this list (myself 
excluded, of course).

>and I have apologized to Dan.

In my opinion, Josh, posting the insult to the list rather than 
sending it as a private email is the equivalent of causing a scene in 
a public place and therefore you do owe the list as a whole an 
apology.

I agree with Dan'l that your Wolfe get-together is almost certainly 
not going to happen for the same reasons he gives. And you have, 
perhaps, made the odds of the success of the project an infinitesimal 
bit smaller by your demonstration of your highly developed ability to 
over-react to non-existent provocation. There was an extremely tiny 
but non-zero chance I might have decided to participate and pay a fee 
for at least a virtual membership in this event before your 
ill-considered remarks, but now the chance of my participation is 
zero.

I don't expect you be impressed by the above statement or care about 
my opinion at all. But if you now hesitate just a bit longer before 
you hit the send button after having written your next "hot-headed" 
reply then I will feel my message has served a useful purpose.
-- 

William Ansley

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 05:37:14 +0000

> a public place and therefore you do owe the list as a whole an 

Well! You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I disagree with it.

But it is obvious that you are offended, and I don't mind apologizing
to you.

I'm sorry, William.

If you can give a better explanation as to how I insulted the list as 
a corporate whole, one that convinces me, I will be perfectly happy
to issue a blanket apology. But really, I feel it is more meaningful
if the people who feel insulted - like Andy and yourself - tell me
about it in front of the list, and give me an opportunity to apologize
to each one of you individually, also in front of the list.

Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to apologize to you.

Josh

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From: Brandon Mason <suck_at_life at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 06:10:55 +0000

You insulted me as well Josh.  Really.

Just joking...

Lighten up people.

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From: Greg Warden <gwarden at fastmail.fm>
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:46:38 +0000

A agree that a weekend (3-day perhaps) would be better. Less risk for GW,
easier to coordinate, etc.

(and I would be interested, most likely)

greg
-- 
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  gwarden at fastmail.fm  <-- note the new address

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From: Josh Geller <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 14:09:44 +0000

> (and I would be interested, most likely)
 
I'm still waiting to hear, one way or another, about GW's interest
or lack of same in this. Might take a while to do so.

J.

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