# Proposed Gene Wolfe Symposium *The Urth list — 27 messages, 10 voices, 26 Jul 2003* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Josh Geller *26 Jul 2003, 20:35* Don writes: > Yeah I know. I was just angry, which is why I labeled it a rant in > forewarning. It sounds like something good might spring from this > though. I hope that at least those who know him personally will convey > how much he is respected as a writer by everyone on this list. I > still don't think much of writing workshops but who knows, maybe that's > my loss. Hey Don, How much would you pay to hang out with Gene Wolfe for a week and talk about whatever he wanted to talk about? I am really getting away from the workshop concept: since it is not conceivable that we will have enough money to offer any writer a reasonable fee, I want this to be much more fun than it is work for the writer. Few people will turn down an all-expenses paid vacation. If it is actually an attempt to get them to work for free or cheap, many people will resent the attempt and not want to have anything to do with it. By the way, I am discussing this idea with some of my friends and associates, and the feeling seems to be that it is an idea with some general potential. Here is what I would like to happen right now: people on this list who would be willing to pay approximately $200 to hang out with Gene Wolfe for a week should sound off. People who are willing to pay approximately $50 to participate in the electronic real-time link that will be set up during each session should also sound off, and would someone who knows Gene Wolfe personally please ask him what he thinks of the idea and pass that on to the list? Anyone who has any suggestions that do not involve doing something completely different in Chicago or somewhere else should also please speak and not hold their peace. Or we can return to wrangling over minutiae. That is always an option. J. ___ --- ### James Wynn *26 Jul 2003, 20:18 · follows Josh Geller* Errrr. Josh? Where *do* you live? -- Crush ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Geller" > Here is what I would like to happen right now: people on this list > who would be willing to pay approximately $200 to hang out with Gene > Wolfe for a week should sound off. --- ### Josh Geller *26 Jul 2003, 20:48 · follows James Wynn* Here's a detail that might make this more attractive as a general proposal: Everything in the sessions will be recorded, transcribed, marketed and (if possible) published, with any profits to be split 50/50 between the author and the entity doing the symposiums. There are a lot of writers who don't get anything like the respect they deserve because they have been classified as SF writers, and most SF fans don't like them for whatever reason. Wolfe, Crowley and Patricia Anthony are the three that leap to mind; I am sure that there are others. . --- ### Josh Geller *26 Jul 2003, 20:49 · follows Josh Geller* The center of the World, of course. East San Jose. But really, this could be done anywhere in the Bay Area. It's centrally located! J. ___ > On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 13:18, James Wynn wrote: > Errrr. Josh? Where *do* you live? > > -- Crush > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Geller" >> Here is what I would like to happen right now: people on this list >> who would be willing to pay approximately $200 to hang out with Gene >> Wolfe for a week should sound off. > -- --- ### Lisa Schaffer-Doggett *26 Jul 2003, 20:31 · follows Josh Geller* > On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 01:35 PM, Josh Geller wrote: > > Hey Don, > > How much would you pay to hang out with Gene Wolfe for a week and talk > about whatever he wanted to talk about? I am really getting away from > the workshop concept: since it is not conceivable that we will have > enough money to offer any writer a reasonable fee, I want this to be > much more fun than it is work for the writer. Few people will turn > down an all-expenses paid vacation. If it is actually an attempt to > get them to work for free or cheap, many people will resent the attempt > and not want to have anything to do with it. > > By the way, I am discussing this idea with some of my friends and > associates, and the feeling seems to be that it is an idea with > some general potential. > > Here is what I would like to happen right now: people on this list > who would be willing to pay approximately $200 to hang out with Gene > Wolfe for a week should sound off. People who are willing to pay > approximately $50 to participate in the electronic real-time link > that will be set up during each session should also sound off, and > would someone who knows Gene Wolfe personally please ask him what he > thinks of the idea and pass that on to the list? > > Anyone who has any suggestions that do not involve doing something > completely different in Chicago or somewhere else should also please > speak and not hold their peace. > > Or we can return to wrangling over minutiae. That is always an option. > > > J. It's a good idea in theory. I would imagine there would have to be some really strong ground rules to keep Mr. Wolfe from being overwhelmed, and there's the question of where it would be so that the most people could attend. I also have my doubts whether he'd be into it. If those issues are addressed, I'm all for it. Maybe it could be coincided with some event that Mr. Wolfe is interested in attending? --- ### Lisa Schaffer-Doggett *26 Jul 2003, 20:36 · follows Lisa Schaffer-Doggett* > On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 01:49 PM, Josh Geller wrote: > The center of the World, of course. > > East San Jose. > > But really, this could be done anywhere in the Bay Area. > > It's centrally located! > > J. Don pipes in: I'm in Santa Cruz. That's two. But this place is mondo expensive, even to visit. Merging this idea with a convention sounds ideal. --- ### Josh Geller *26 Jul 2003, 21:12 · follows Lisa Schaffer-Doggett* > On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 13:31, Lisa Schaffer-Doggett wrote: > It's a good idea in theory. I would imagine there would have to be > some really strong ground rules to keep Mr. Wolfe from being > overwhelmed, Absolutely. > and there's the question of where it would be so that the > most people could attend. If I am to have anything to do with it, it will be in the Bay Area, or at least the first one will be. If someone else wants to do it without me, somewhere else, please do go ahead! > I also have my doubts whether he'd be into > it. Hopefully at some point we will know. And then I will either start doing some actual work on the project, or I will shut up and go back to shaking my head sadly while y'all argue as to whether Hyacinth was a male chem or whether Gene Wolfe has a perfect memory. . --- ### Josh Geller *26 Jul 2003, 21:22 · follows Josh Geller* > On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 13:36, Don wrote: > On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 01:49 PM, Josh Geller wrote: >> The center of the World, of course. >> East San Jose. >> But really, this could be done anywhere in the Bay Area. >> It's centrally located! > I'm in Santa Cruz. That's two. But this place is mondo expensive, > even to visit. I am thinking of ways to make it much less expensive. Providing one fine meal a day, snacks and beverages will help. Can't do much about transportation costs, but I do have quite a bit of floor space in my house, if anyone is coming who is OK with sleeping on people's floors. I would be willing, since we are talking about limiting this to 12 real-time participants, to put up at least some of them. I'd provide breakfast for anyone in the house. > Merging this idea with a convention sounds ideal. I tend not to agree. Perhaps doing this for a weekend, as opposed to a whole week, might be for the best, at least for the first time or two times. Anyone who does mention this to Gene Wolfe should please ask him to set out every condition that he can think of. Anyone else who can think of suggestions to make something like this perfectly comfortable for the writer and reasonably comfortable for the other participants should also feel free to tell me about it. Send me private email if you don't want to say it on the list. . --- ### James Wynn *26 Jul 2003, 20:57 · follows Josh Geller* LOL What sort of things do you think people will talk about at the symposium? ;-) > Hopefully at some point we will know. And then I will either start doing > some actual work on the project, or I will shut up and go back to > shaking my head sadly while y'all argue as to whether Hyacinth was a > male chem or whether Gene Wolfe has a perfect memory. --- ### Josh Geller *26 Jul 2003, 21:30 · follows James Wynn* Whatever Gene Wolfe wants to talk about, is the plan. This event is for the writer more than it is for the other participant, though I hope and expect that they will be finding it worthwhile. I got really pissed off hearing about how Wolfe was treated. I prefer doing things to talking about things, as a general rule. J. ___ > On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 13:57, James Wynn wrote: > LOL What sort of things do you think people will talk about at the > symposium? > ;-) >> Hopefully at some point we will know. And then I will either start doing >> some actual work on the project, or I will shut up and go back to >> shaking my head sadly while y'all argue as to whether Hyacinth was a >> male chem or whether Gene Wolfe has a perfect memory. > -- --- ### Chris *26 Jul 2003, 21:32 · follows Josh Geller* I would definitely be willing to participate. The timing and location would be important, of course. > Here's a detail that might make this more attractive as a general > proposal: > > Everything in the sessions will be recorded, transcribed, marketed and > (if possible) published, with any profits to be split 50/50 between the > author and the entity doing the symposiums. > > There are a lot of writers who don't get anything like the respect they > deserve because they have been classified as SF writers, and most SF > fans don't like them for whatever reason. Wolfe, Crowley and Patricia > Anthony are the three that leap to mind; I am sure that there are > others. > > > > . > > > > -- --- ### Josh Geller *26 Jul 2003, 22:12 · follows Chris* Assuming Gene Wolfe is interested in doing this, timing is very open and would be arranged for convenience, with (as I mentioned) the writer's convenience coming before the other participant's convenience, though hopefully we would make everybody reasonably happy. J. ___ > On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 14:32, Chris wrote: > I would definitely be willing to participate. The timing and location would > be important, of course. >> Here's a detail that might make this more attractive as a general >> proposal: >> >> Everything in the sessions will be recorded, transcribed, marketed and >> (if possible) published, with any profits to be split 50/50 between the >> author and the entity doing the symposiums. >> >> There are a lot of writers who don't get anything like the respect they >> deserve because they have been classified as SF writers, and most SF >> fans don't like them for whatever reason. Wolfe, Crowley and Patricia >> Anthony are the three that leap to mind; I am sure that there are >> others. >> >> >> >> . >> >> >> >> -- > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > -- --- ### James Wynn *26 Jul 2003, 22:53 · follows Josh Geller* Well, all things being equal, I'm in. -- Crush --- ### Josh Geller *26 Jul 2003, 23:35 · follows James Wynn* That's great. Hopefully Gene Wolfe will let us know under what conditions he would be willing to do this, and I can get to work. J. ___ > On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 15:53, James Wynn wrote: > Well, all things being equal, I'm in. > > > -- Crush > > > -- --- ### silk tree *27 Jul 2003, 14:40 · follows Josh Geller* I would be interested in a Wolfe symposium or even a symposium of Obscure but excellent authors on order of Wolfe and Crowley. This year is bad for me because I'm not sure I could raise the money to travel to San Jose. If this actually does happen, I hope there is a chance of making it an annual event, or perhaps at least every so often type of event. (or maybe we could invite different authors every year?) Btw, I did not mean to offend Josh by suggesting a con event. I was just trying to make logistics easier. Good luck in your plans. mimosa --- ### Josh Geller *27 Jul 2003, 15:46 · follows silk tree* > On Sun, 2003-07-27 at 07:40, silk tree wrote: > I would be interested in a Wolfe symposium or even a symposium of > Obscure but excellent authors on order of Wolfe and Crowley. This year > is bad for me because I'm not sure I could raise the money to travel to > San Jose. I doubt strongly that it will happen this year. If and when I do start doing the actual work on this, I will be asking for input from people who have said that they might want to go. There's no reason not to plan it for the convenience of as many people as possible. > If this actually does happen, I hope there is a chance of > making it an annual event, or perhaps at least every so often type of > event. (or maybe we could invite different authors every year?) Either or both would be great with me. But first, of course, I would like to do it one time. If it works, and I don't lose any money, and I don't see why it shouldn't be an every-so-often event. > Btw, I did not mean to offend Josh by suggesting a con event. You didn't! > I was > just trying to make logistics easier. Please, if you want to do the same thing doing in Chicago sometime, I think it would be great. If this is successful, I think that people will be doing it all over. > Good luck in your plans. Thank you! J. ___ --- ### Brandon Mason *27 Jul 2003, 18:43 · follows Josh Geller* I would like to attend. I am located in Kentucky, and I could see myself taking a bus as long as the ride wasn't lets say over 40 hours? $200.00 seems more than fair to me, and I would probably be willing to pay more than that if necessary. But, if there is anyone else that would want to go (12 person limit right?) they could have my place. I'm extremely interested in this, but I don't want to knock anyone else out of getting to go that wants to. Especially if they aren't that far away from where this would be held at. -BM --- ### Josh Geller *27 Jul 2003, 19:19 · follows Brandon Mason* > On Sun, 2003-07-27 at 11:43, Brandon Mason wrote: > I would like to attend. I am located in Kentucky, and > I could see myself taking a bus as long as the ride > wasn't lets say over 40 hours? $200.00 seems more > than fair to me, and I would probably be willing to > pay more than that if necessary. But, if there is > anyone else that would want to go (12 person limit > right?) they could have my place. I'm extremely > interested in this, but I don't want to knock anyone > else out of getting to go that wants to. Especially > if they aren't that far away from where this would be > held at. I think, if it happens at all, it is going to be the first twelve people to put a deposit down. Either that or some kind of lottery. As always, I welcome comments and input. J. ___ --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *28 Jul 2003, 15:52 · follows Josh Geller* I was going to say something about this and then forgot. While I would very much like to be a part of something like this, and in fact live in the right part of the world - the east bay to be semi-precise -- in fact, my beloved Spousal Overunit went to hiskul in East San Jose - I do not believe it likely to happen. My expectation is that, confronted with the suggestion of such a thing, Mr. Wolfe is likely to regard it as the concoction of a gaggle of hero-worshipping fanboys (and -girls), and to conclude that his gradually decreasing store of time would be better spent working on the continuation of Latro's tale. Quite rightly, in my opinion. Still, if I'm totally wrong about this and you convince him, count me in. --- ### Josh Geller *28 Jul 2003, 16:40 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 08:52, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > I was going to say something about this and then forgot. > While I would very much like to be a part of something like this, and in > fact live in the right part of the world - the east bay to be semi-precise > -- in fact, my beloved Spousal Overunit went to hiskul in East San > Jose - I do not believe it likely to happen. For your information, I live in a three bedroom house with a big yard and garden in a very nice, very middle class, very quiet neighborhood. There are rough neighborhoods in East San Jose, some of them not too far away. Mine, however, is very quiet and peaceful. I am sorry. There really is no polite way to say 'fuck you, white boy'. I am ashamed. > My expectation is that, confronted with the suggestion of such a thing, Mr. > Wolfe is likely to regard it as the concoction of a gaggle of > hero-worshippin fanboys (and -girls), Thank you for your encouragement and support. > Still, if I'm totally wrong about this and you convince him, count me in. If this thing works at all, it will be done either on a first come, first served basis, or by a lottery. In either case you will have the same chance as everybody else to participate. . --- ### Andy Robertson *28 Jul 2003, 15:49 · follows Josh Geller* You astonish me. There is no polite way to say "fuck you, jew boy" either, but the fact that you are presumably jewish does not give you a free pass to deal out racial insults like this. You owe the whole list an apology. hartshorn ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Geller" brunians at brunians.org > > I am sorry. There really is no polite way to say 'fuck you, white boy'. > > I am ashamed. --- ### Josh Geller *28 Jul 2003, 18:08 · follows Andy Robertson* > On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 08:49, Andy Robertson wrote: > You astonish me. Yeah, I astonish myself sometimes. > There is no polite way to say "fuck you, jew boy" either, but the fact that > you are presumably jewish does not give you a free pass to deal out racial > insults like this. What does being a Jew have to do with anything? I am, in fact, ethnically ashkenazi, but everyone who sees me considers me to be a white person, as I consider myself to be a white person. Ashkenazi are all pretty white, and about half of us aren't even a little bit middle-eastern looking. > You owe the whole list an apology. I don't see that. I didn't insult the whole list. I insulted Dan, and I have apologized to Dan. If you feel insulted by my insulting Dan, I suppose it doesn't cost me anything to apologize to you. I'm sorry, Andy. . --- ### William Ansley *29 Jul 2003, 04:58 · follows Josh Geller* Well we've had an unpleasantness on this list and once again I am extremely impressed by the enormous self-restraint and impeccable good manners of the vast majority of members of this list (myself excluded, of course). > At 11:08 AM -0700 7/28/03, Josh Geller wrote: > On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 08:49, Andy Robertson wrote: > > You owe the whole list an apology. > > I don't see that. I didn't insult the whole list. I insulted Dan, > and I have apologized to Dan. In my opinion, Josh, posting the insult to the list rather than sending it as a private email is the equivalent of causing a scene in a public place and therefore you do owe the list as a whole an apology. I agree with Dan'l that your Wolfe get-together is almost certainly not going to happen for the same reasons he gives. And you have, perhaps, made the odds of the success of the project an infinitesimal bit smaller by your demonstration of your highly developed ability to over-react to non-existent provocation. There was an extremely tiny but non-zero chance I might have decided to participate and pay a fee for at least a virtual membership in this event before your ill-considered remarks, but now the chance of my participation is zero. I don't expect you be impressed by the above statement or care about my opinion at all. But if you now hesitate just a bit longer before you hit the send button after having written your next "hot-headed" reply then I will feel my message has served a useful purpose. ``` William Ansley -- ``` --- ### Josh Geller *29 Jul 2003, 05:37 · follows William Ansley* > On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 21:58, William Ansley wrote: > At 11:08 AM -0700 7/28/03, Josh Geller wrote: >> On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 08:49, Andy Robertson wrote: > Well we've had an unpleasantness on this list and once again I am > extremely impressed by the enormous self-restraint and impeccable > good manners of the vast majority of members of this list (myself > excluded, of course). >>> You owe the whole list an apology. >> I don't see that. I didn't insult the whole list. I insulted Dan, >> and I have apologized to Dan. > In my opinion, Josh, posting the insult to the list rather than > sending it as a private email is the equivalent of causing a scene in > a public place and therefore you do owe the list as a whole an > apology. Well! You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I disagree with it. But it is obvious that you are offended, and I don't mind apologizing to you. I'm sorry, William. If you can give a better explanation as to how I insulted the list as a corporate whole, one that convinces me, I will be perfectly happy to issue a blanket apology. But really, I feel it is more meaningful if the people who feel insulted - like Andy and yourself - tell me about it in front of the list, and give me an opportunity to apologize to each one of you individually, also in front of the list. Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to apologize to you. Josh ___ --- ### Brandon Mason *29 Jul 2003, 06:10 · follows Josh Geller* You insulted me as well Josh. Really. Just joking... Lighten up people. --- ### Greg Warden *01 Aug 2003, 11:46 · follows Brandon Mason* A agree that a weekend (3-day perhaps) would be better. Less risk for GW, easier to coordinate, etc. (and I would be interested, most likely) greg ``` Greg Warden gwarden at fastmail.fm <-- note the new address -- ``` --- ### Josh Geller *01 Aug 2003, 14:09 · follows Greg Warden* > On Fri, 2003-08-01 at 04:46, Greg Warden wrote: > A agree that a weekend (3-day perhaps) would be better. Less risk for GW, > easier to coordinate, etc. > (and I would be interested, most likely) I'm still waiting to hear, one way or another, about GW's interest or lack of same in this. Might take a while to do so. J. ___ ---